You know, I may regret this later, but I doubt it...
Apparently, it’s okay to be eh, you know, if you are doing it in the interests of women!
Guess whom I am talking about this time?
A recap, shall we?
Once upon a time, RenEv stumbled upon this quote:
"yadda yadda...women do not choose to be whores; not the real whores or the whore-for-a-day whores. They may rationalize that they did but they didn't. They didn't have real choice, not even the ones on the book tour building their academic careers about how empowered lap dancers and exotic dancers are. It's well known by the way that there is no divide between prostitution and exotic dancing.Tonight the stage tomorrow the corner. It's all the same shit. BB here, Sam on genderberg.com and on witchy woo lay it out pretty thorough.”
I took exception to it and wrote this:
“Because of course, we have NO choice. I am a 'little' peeved by this comment... YES, I can understand the passion and venom expressed in the defense of women who DO NOT want to be in the industry, hell, I actually applaud it. However, suggesting that those of us who ARE there by choice AREN'T? As if ---- has peeked inside the hearts and minds and economic situations of each and every one of us who claim to be and pulled forth the gleeming, righteous TRUTH, and that truth is we had NO choice, that we are all liars, to ourselves and the world at large?Being blunt? It's arrogant of her, and it pisses me off. NO ONE has to agree with me, fine, but do not pressume to tell me about the truth of my choices.”
Okay, so perhaps not the most civil of my moments, but it was a pervading view at the time that annoyed me because it completely paints all sex workers with ONE brush…seemingly the Rad Fem brush, and eliminates the mere notion that such a thing as a choice exists for people like me. And it is one that is repeated over and over. And it gets old.
Time carries on. Another round of the sex wars errupts on PunkAss & Pandagon. I, oh, being a sex worker go over there and insist that some of us do actually do what we do by choice (as do some other sex workers) The discussion is heated. I am talking with Delphyne trying to figure out if there is any common ground, and I get these gem from you know who: “The idea that Ren Ev is exploring sexuality is a load of crap. What she is really doing is enabling the pervasive, perverse and misogynisitic idea of women as asexual.”
And I am like WTF? Where did that come from? Threads continue, debate continues, and then, there is this:
“I am a rad fem. I am old. I have seen Ren Evs pictures on her websites. Standing next to me, even at my age, she’d be barking... I do think she’s using these threads to advertise her sorry services, and any engagement with her enbables that. "”
Followed by this:
“Ren Ev: throughout these three (or four) threads one of your and your johns constant refrains has been to call us prudes, sex-negative, imply we are old and therefore undesirably and powerless (or outright say that and wow that went completely unchallenged and what a flashing neon advertisement of your misogyny and sexism), and unable to sell ourselves because of our looks (every rad fem here reading check out the mirror now)."
Which is ENITIRELY UNTRUE.
(Course, people were more concerned that the woman called me a whore than anything else, naturally).
And then when I have the nerve to post a photo o’ myself mostly nekkid (yet covered) and flipping the bird, this shows up in my comments:
“Actually I had no idea what you looked like. But I was right!” (i.e, I’d be barking, I’m a dog and all…)
Which prompted my “Mean & Nasty” Post, where I flat out said what I thought about some Rad Fems, and admitted I could be, in fact, mean & nasty.
More time goes by. A renounce my “feminist” moniker. A porn thread appears. This is said by the same person, once again, out of nowhere really…
“To the poster who says some men should be kicked out of the human race (presumably meaning the men in the photos):What do we do with the women who earn their living posing for violent porn, use their websites to solicit for this, say they do it by choice, say it turns them on, call themselves sex positive feminists, and tell rad fems to get out of their face when rad fems say what they are doing is harmful to all women?What do we do when they post this crap to blogs like this?"
I then point out, that humm, for someone who is using their website for soliciting…anything, I really AM doing a shitty job as my name, my professional name, the name of my agency, the name of any site or medium I have been on, my contact number, and my IM??? Well…NONE of them are listed on this here site where I am supposedly trying to drum up business…and oh yeah, if I want to make rough porn/have rough sex…I can do so, and it is my choice!
So, nothing much happens then after that. I avoid her. I meet some fairly keen Rad Fems who start making me think “huh, not all of ‘em are like that”. I am commenting on a Rad Fem blog, with the Rad Fem owner’s permission, an interesting conversation with various sorts is occuring, and BLAM, there is this:
“Anyone who wants to can go to Ren Evs livejournal blog and read her entry from last March or thereabouts where she posts Jensen’s private e-mails with her (did you have his permission and consent to do that Ren Ev?) and read her telling Jensen that she had, to that date, been paid for the particular sexual acts she enjoys and specializes in. That makes her, at that time, a worker in pornography.
It means Jensen was not lying when he said he had not heard a woman outside of porn say she liked DP.
So this is a person to be respected, believed, and consulted about ethics?
I grock.”
Which is totally off topic, and comes along with this:
“Ren Ev, on her Free Speech and Dissent blog, says Jensen is lying, because she told him (on her livejournal blog) that she liked DP and she wasn’t in porn when she said it. She was in porn. And you are right Delphyne, Jensen isn’t the one lying.”
To whit, I reply:
“Ahem: From my conversations with Jensen-
“I have been “throat fucked” and penetrated by multiple men at the same time, been called some incredibly degrading names, and done a great many of the things that people do find so offensive in the gonzo genre of porn, often. I do not always get paid for it; I do it because I, as a female, enjoy it.”
-I do not always get paid for it….this does NOT mean paid for doing it on flim aka, porn. I do believe most of you know I have been paid for sex that has not been filmed…
“Yeah, I have done some amateur porn, thought about going “pro” . Most of you know that. And I am not nearly as stunning as Tera Patrick or Jenna Jamison or any of those big name contract girls. Yeah, I do wonder what my family would think if they knew, and I do wonder how it would affect my “normal life”. But would I mind getting paid to do most of the crazy sex stuff I do ANYWAY?”
-Amature, meaning unpaid, non professional sex photos used for myself and my partners for our own gratification. Something a lot of “normal, non-adult entertainer” types do, and technically, not porn as anyone, so far as I know, thinks of it. Lots of couples make sexual home movies.
This conversation occurred before I ever got paid to do anything on film for the consumption of a third party. Which is what porn IS…the paid filming of sex acts for viewing by others.
Nor does it negate the fact that other women, who have not done porn at all, have nothing to do with porn, or any other such thing, have said they liked DP. In fact, I suspect come March, a few of them will be telling him as much in Boston.
Hate my guts and everything I stand for as much as you want. I am past caring. You have been more verbally abusive to me than any man EVER has. “
To which she responds:
“There are so many split hairs in what you’ve just posted Ren Ev. Haven’t you just spent the better part of your ‘non-wokring’ afternoon telling us how innocent calling names is? Give it up.”
And This:
“For the record, Ren Ev you started this slamming me on your blog.
But no I don’t hate you. I do however see where some of your problems and yeah they are problem may originate. I’ve known a few gymnasts.
No. I don’t hate you. I think you are intelligent and write very well.
I don’t say anything I don’t mean. So I’m not going to say I respect you (SE), believe you (WW) nor will I trust you (Jensen).”
And I just had to say…
“Great, don’t hate me, don’t assume what issues I may or may not have either, ex-gymnast or not. Chances are I will rant about in my own blog. Imagine that. Presumtion does not suit…anyone really. And I disagreed with something you said. Oh no. And gee, your lack of faith in me disturbs me. Really. Someone get me a tissue."
Now, out of respect to the owner of the blog where this is all going down, I am going to leave it at that. Or at least try as hard as I can to leave it at that. Hell, I was trying to STAY on thesbuject(s) at hand Yet, oddly enough, a few things still perplex me…
1) A flat out liar rad fem calling me a liar when it comes to technicalities? I mean, wrt to the Jensen thing I am technically right, and you, well, you are just a liar. I NEVER “called us prudes, sex-negative, imply we are old and therefore undesirably and powerless (or outright say that and wow that went completely unchallenged and what a flashing neon advertisement of your misogyny and sexism), and unable to sell ourselves because of our looks” not once. I’ve called you on that a few times now, still no proof, still no back up, and still no admission that A) you attributed statements not made by me to me, sorry. B) or, well, gee, I am just a freaking liar RE, it helps to prove my point!
2) She can come in and attack a commentator in a totally off topic manner and no one calls her on it until, well, the attacked party responds? Now, the lady that runs the joint is a classy dame, but I betcha anywhere else, if I had pulled that crap, guess who would be the banned troll?
3) It’s, well, okay for her to insult my looks and all, which is oh so feminist.
4) She can see my problems, oh yes, she can see them. ‘Cause she’s known some gymnasts and all, so you know, she can drive by psychoanalyze me…(heh, bring it, I would love to hear your in depth analysis, actually, oh, btw, I ran track and played rugby too, does that add to my problems?) Never mind that everyone alive today has a few issues to their credit, you show me a person who doesn’t and I will show you an android…but come on! Before you go looking for demons in my closet maybe you should check a few of your own, seriously.
So anyway, that’s the latest. And this is me being grimly amused. Imagine that? Hey, at least I am intelligent, even though I am supposedly a lying (pot, kettle, black), ugly, blah blah blah Henchwoman and all…
And you know, in this case, it sure ain’t the menz dividing us. And I generally do not say what I do not mean either, and I think you are pretty much a petty, bitter, person who gets off on being imperious and insulting towards people who do not share your vision...
huh, we're you a gymnast too?
Wednesday, November 22, 2006
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30 comments:
Um. -What?- Wait, what about -gymnasts,- now?
christ, i don't know, RE; it's sort of like trying to have a discussion at the Mad Tea Party.
i mean--fucking WHAT?
...
well you know, all gymnasts have body issues (never mind that I 'made weight' without starving myself to do it and I did not get into the big time "i want to be in the olympics gymanastics variety of the sport...yeah, I competed competitively for several years, but I went to college on a ACADEMIC/ TRACK scholarship... oh she, knows where I live FOR SURE.
You know I hate people, right?
heh, re: you playing rugby and running track, I'm reminded of an off-color joke: "You know why Polo girls wear knee pads, right?"
"it's sort of like trying to have a discussion at the Mad Tea Party"
Yup, the dormouse is well and truly in the teapot, there!
Don't let the shit she spouts bother you, RE. It all comes from her, from her own twistedness and all-consuming issues. And the more time that goes on, the more people she does this stuff to.
Hey, she hasn't accused you of being a child pornographer yet, has she?!
And as for anyone who'd tolerate her attacks on people, well, as far as I'm concerned if you let that slide you show exactly what calibre of person you are...
The whole thing smacks of jealousy, and wounded pride. I sense jealousy of that body you work hard on, and wounded pride because you refuse to toe their party line.
Now, no one is jealous of my body, but I also refuse to toe their party line. The difference is that you keep throwing it in their face and I refuse to read their stuff. But then, you thrive on controvesy, and I despise tension and conflict.
What I STILL don't understand, is all their whining and carrying on about Choice and how they have no Rights and Men R Evil (because they're different?), when their very whining is indicative of all kinds of choice. So, I guess, no one is allowed choice unless THEY make the choice for them.
Dunno...people like that are why I do what I do, so I don't have to associate with them. I'll read, and go *tsk*, but I won't participate.
okay, so: who made that comment? -was- it fucking pony? because, yeah, what andrea said.
i'm still marvelling that she's (we learn) in someone's "safe space," wrt the whole someone left the cake out in the rain i mean "leaked" something particularly vile she said from the sooper-seekrit genderberg fora. i was all, yah, not suave, that, but 1) Not Our Problem Here, Really and 2) -seriously-? you have bloody -pony- in your seekrit protected enclave? really. people who even -question- the idea that any type of pr0n -ever- might be acceptable are Teh Enemy. at best, deeply suspect, and "not real feminists" (!) even if (like antiprincess) they're kind and generous and never flame anyone.
but someone who basically has springs coming out of her head and unleashes torrents of sexist along with other forms of seriously foul, below-the-belt abuse on people, she's just A-OK?
"we are of different worlds, madame."
clearly.
BD:
Of course it was her. And i never heard what vileness she said over there. Do I want to?
I have worked in the sex industry for some years. I thought I was making a "free" choice but when I searched deep in my soul, I realised that the road had been paved in many layers to push me to make this choice.
All of this crap about "looks" - there is a big margin as to what will "sell" or not - men will buy just about any kind of woman going (just listen to what is actually being said - "men will buy a woman") - yes the stereotypical "porn standard" looking ones ie young, blonde with big tits, will no doubt get more biz, but if you are truly hell-bent on getting money for sex, it can be done, but yes, it gets harder the more you stray away from the porn-standard look - which is a damning indictment in itself.
But the fact that the issue has been raised in here about age, attractiveness etc, really points the finger at sex work ultimately being anti-woman and not liberating at all.
If I could get the same amount of autonomy and money (even half would do) working in an office, I would jump at the chance. The issue is giving women REAL choices - not forced ones. I mean really, step back and take a look - is it really all wine and roses getting fucked by a man you don't really like or even fancy? An occupation that requires no mental stimulation or any particular skill? An occupation that many drug users have to choose? An occupation that leaves you open to abuse? You may say that the monetary return is compensation, but that doesn't make it ideal.
I mean really, step back and take a look - is it really all wine and roses getting fucked by a man you don't really like or even fancy? An occupation that requires no mental stimulation or any particular skill? An occupation that many drug users have to choose? An occupation that leaves you open to abuse? You may say that the monetary return is compensation, but that doesn't make it ideal.
Well, obviously it was not ideal for you; it was not liberating for you. That's your personal experience, your personal truth that you found when searching yourself. I don't think any of us here have any objection whatsoever to that. Where I object is when people attempt to extrapolate their own personal experiences and apply them to everyone else - basically taking away others' free agency.
I hope this doesn't sound personally insulting, I don't mean it that way at all.
Anonymous:
I realize a great many women are, for various reasons, pushed in one way or another into various aspects of the sex industry. I’ve said that repeatedly. I do think it is unfortunate. I also know women who do, honestly, choose to do it. I’ve searched my soul too, and the fact is, I do what I do of my own volition. I have other viable job choices, yet I choose to do this. I suppose some people do not want to like or believe or accept this is, but that does not change the fact that it is my choice.
And my argument with this woman regarding looks had nothing to do with ‘male standards of what is attractive’. Hell, I am not blonde, nor do I look 18. Am I closer to ‘the porn look’ than a lot of women? Sure, I am. But that is not the point. The point is a woman who calls herself a radical feminist, who supposedly cares about women, thinks it is okay to not only lie, but insult other women for the way they look, repeatedly…when a basic idea in feminism is that NO woman should be judged or insulted for the way she looks. The point is she takes opportunity after opportunity to attack me personally when ‘me personally’ is not the subject at hand. Which in no way is constructive, at all.
I could make the same money working in an office. I’ve had office jobs, good ones. But I prefer this. I’ve been doing this off and on for quite some time now, and I still prefer it. I have “stepped back” and looked at it. I have no problem having sex with men I do not fancy. I have other choices. I actually do get some mental stimulation out of it and I would argue that AT LEAST being a half way decent stripper requires some ‘skills’ (like being able to dance, for instance). Anyone can answer phones in an office and run a switchboard too, doing it well is different. Being entertaining in any aspect of sex work is also different from just doing it. And I am not a drug addict either (nor are many of the women I work with), a woman can be abused anywhere…and no, it is not all wine and roses, which I have also said before. I have NEVER said this was an ideal or preferable choice for many women, in fact, I have said the exact opposite, but for me, personally, it IS the ideal choice, and I have made that choice, and I wish every woman in the business was in the same boat…but because they are not it is not ‘my fault’, nor does it negate my own choice and ability to make it.
You would jump at the choice to have an office job that paid comparably. I had an office job that paid comparably, and I hated it, so I jumped at the choice to do this. It is that simple, really.
Well, i haven't worked in the sex industry per se; and i don't particularly enjoy sexual relations with men in general, so it probably wouldn't be ideal for me, at least as a money-making proposition.
That said, i've been around certain aspects of the sex industry (very rarefied sorts of massage work, phone sex, pro-domme) and participated in let's say what could be training sessions, enough to say that it interests me, and that while i'm sure i'd have my bad days, i'd far rather be able to hang up on an asshole (or have the whip in my hand) than be subject, day after day, to a boss and atmosphere like this.
much less clean blood off a kill floor in a slaughterhouse; or scrub out toilets in subways or bars; or scrape pigeon shit off statues; or...
ultimately what's really demeaning is having to bow and scrape and accept all kinds of physically and emotionally tormenting working conditions and do things that are horrible to you personally (with a smile, yet) in order to put food on the table.
>Of course it was her. And i never heard what vileness she said over there. Do I want to?>
Which vileness? I haven't been reading the threads at w-w's. Oh, you mean the one aniters was talking about? Something about how Amp (of Alas) clearly couldn't be in such dire financial straits because if he were, he wouldn't be able to afford getting so fucking FAT. There's no "excuse" for being that fat anyway, much less pimping out women to support yer food habit. words to that effect. oh, and even paraplegics can exercise, did you know? so there's really no excuse. i can't remember why, but i'm sure this was terribly fucking relevant.
this was apparently "leaked" from the sooper-sekrit private forum, you know, (I hadn't previously, but then if i had i guess it wouldn't have been much of a Secret, would it), where they all huddle together to say really intimate, personal shit and be -safe.- so clearly we must help to catch the dastardly leaker. so that they can be safe again. see. pariahs that we were, antip and I and the others, she still deigned to wade in and -hope- we could work together on this, did whatserface. god bless, really.
on the other hand, pony's crack that all but said Amp was probably a pedophile, on account of he 1) is now connected indirectly to pr0n, for a profit and 2) regularly publishes pictures of his baby nephew(s?)--that one was right there on Alas, so we know it wasn't leaked, at least.
>And as for anyone who'd tolerate her attacks on people, well, as far as I'm concerned if you let that slide you show exactly what calibre of person you are...>
o, but andrea, didn't you know? All "nastiness" is equivalent. So if you say that Twisty is a vicious sadistic ice queen (because of her bullying behavior), and pony says that Amp is disgustingly fat and a probably pedophile and Ren is a "dog" (based on her photo, and on the voices in her head i guess), because they support the dreaded pr0n industry in any way shape or form, that's -exactly the same.-
Also, it's really selfish to defend oneself for one's sexual proclivities (when being mocked for them by supposed allies), much less actually indulge in them in the first place, unapologetically, yet, because it hurts Women; whereas being concerned about particular other womens' feelings, based on -their- say-so, that is irrelevant, in the greater scheme of things.
*head explodes*
"It all comes from her, from her own twistedness and all-consuming issues."
Ahh, but you see, Andrea, YOU are the one with the all consuming issues :P
In light of this post among other things I hereby pledge to stand up to all forms of bullshit - both online and irl - when I see it from now on. Even if it means I get accused of 'derailing' threads or whatever.
I failed to do this at the weekend when a number of radfems were making 'dead men can't rape comments', and I wish I had been brave enough to say something.
Anyway, enough about me. Well done for remaining so calm, RE. As if you represent a bigger threat to women than, oh, I dunno, the Taliban, or the antichoicers, or raping soldiers. For fuck's sake.
"I could make the same money working in an office. I’ve had office jobs, good ones. But I prefer this. I’ve been doing this off and on for quite some time now, and I still prefer it. I have “stepped back” and looked at it. I have no problem having sex with men I do not fancy."
Well that's good and I have been there myself. It's just that I question your motives as to why you prefer the work (really look deep inside - but it's your choice as to how deep), and you say you have no problem having sex with men you do not fancy - why? I am just trying to understand. Not having problem with it is not the same as enjoying it. I take it maybe it's the money you like? Also, I feel that this is tied in with how you want to define yourself and how your self-value is defined by men? I think this is what happens with many prostitutes - there is really an abuse issue underlying the motives, whether personal or cultural, that needs to be "acted out" time and again. But I am not a psychoanalyst thank god. I only know what I and other women I've known experienced and feel.
This is not meant in any way as a criticism as such, but even if I was ok with having done sex work, and if I was still doing it, I would quietly go about doing my job, I would not publicise or glorify it in any way, really, out of sheer respect for my sisters who have no choice but to fuck men they don't like, who are traffiked or who, who are forced into the work by circumstances beyond their control, those who just cannot make ends meet in this unfairly balanced-economically-in-favour-towards men misogynistic world (and this is the majority of women in sex work I'm afraid).
I would think twice about publicly stating any personal positives around sex work as there are too many men around who actually believe most prostitutes enjoy every encounter and generally enjoy the work - the opposite is true, and to glorify prostitution (that word will be jumped on, but I do have problems sometimes finding the right word sorry), is to kind of spit in the face of the prostitutes who hate what they do, and is perpetuation the myth and the lie that men want to believe the prostitution is somehow empowering - it is certainly not for most prostitutes. But respect to you, as I know prostitution is not an easy option.
I say all this with the utmost consideration, but I question your motives. Thanks for reading.
*sigh*... for anyone who wonders why RE gets REALLY FUCKING ANNOYED sometimes...
It's just that I question your motives as to why you prefer the work (really look deep inside - but it's your choice as to how deep), and you say you have no problem having sex with men you do not fancy - why? I am just trying to understand.
See... if I were RE, I would NOT be able to remain as patient and calm as she does. I mean, *I* am sick of such questions, and I'm not even a sex worker! It gets old real fast when people are constantly demanding you explain yourself, MORE and MORE, no, look DEEPER, what are your REAL motivations, you must tell ME, I need to know, oh and let me pick at you JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE if you don't mind...
- hey, why are you being so pissy?? Did I hit a nerve? Did I hit a truth you don't want to admit to yourself??
Um, no, you were just being an insufferable asshole!!
This is how it goes.
And look, Anon? Best of intentions or not? I don't really care at the moment, because this: "really look deep inside - but it's your choice as to how deep)" just sounds REALLY assholish.
If it were me you were speaking to, I'd say, "Hey, fuck off! K thx bye."
This has me all irritated and frazzled now... I may have to write a blog post later where I attempt to be more eloquent than this stream of consciousness comment.
Also - RE is not "glorifying" prostitution. Seriously, when are people going to get that thru their thick skulls?? She is speaking the truth about *her life* and *her choices* and *her personal experiences* with sex work. That is all!!
If I say, "I enjoy being a web developer because ... blah blah blah reason" I am not GLORIFYING the technology industry!! I am simply saying what I like and why - speaking for no one but myself and my own experiences.
What is the problem here, exactly??
“Well that's good and I have been there myself. It's just that I question your motives as to why you prefer the work (really look deep inside - but it's your choice as to how deep), and you say you have no problem having sex with men you do not fancy - why? I am just trying to understand. Not having problem with it is not the same as enjoying it…”
Of course you question my motives, especially having been there yourself…because eventually you realized you did hate it and had your own reasons for hating it and it is simply natural for most people to assume that what they end up disliking, for whatever reasons, especially when MOST people have some sort of issue with it, well that all others will end up disliking it for whatever reasons as well. It is hard for people in general to get, understand, trust or take at face value what they do not understand, nor like. You certainly understand the nature of the businesss, and your own reasons for doing it, and you found it to be something you did not like. So it is natural for you to assume that others in such a business have had the same or similar experiences, the same or similar reasons for doing it, and also find it is something they do not like. Other conclusions will of course find you questioning someone elses motives. However, that does not mean your experiences and assumptions and questions are right and true and accurate for everyone else, even if it might be all of those things for the majority. I’ve looked, deep inside and all around with a flash light at great length and even with an expert explorer or two, and it comes down to this. I see sex and intimacy as two entirely different things that can, on occasion, overlap. However, mostly I view sex as a physical act, which is why it is easy for me to do this, have no problem doing it, and even often enjoy it…even if I do not fancy the guys I am stripping for and / or having sex with. Most people, especially most women, are not wired that way so of course they do not get it or take it at face value because it is not in line with their experiences. However, it does not make it any less true. And that assumprtion, that there is only, can really only be one truth for any woman who does this sort of thing, really does get to me. We are not all the same. We all have different views and thoughts and feelings and experiences, so it is truly impossible for one truth to be fully true for all of us, and I do not see why that is so hard to get.
“I take it maybe it's the money you like? Also, I feel that this is tied in with how you want to define yourself and how your self-value is defined by men? I think this is what happens with many prostitutes - there is really an abuse issue underlying the motives, whether personal or cultural, that needs to be "acted out" time and again. But I am not a psychoanalyst thank god. I only know what I and other women I've known experienced and feel.”
Of course I like the money. I also like the hours, most of the other people I work with, the experiences, and yes, even the work itself on many occasions. I also tend to try not to define myself solely by one aspect of my life, in fact, I try to avoid definitions when possible, because like many things, they are not wholly accurate. Yet, I do have to work within the language that I am given, so sure, defining happens. Point is, like anyone else, I am a lot of different things with a lot of different moods and a lot of different words or terms or phrases can or do describe me at any given time in a variety of situations. That’s the way the world and people work so far as I can tell. And truthfully, my self value really has very little to do with men, especially when boiled down to “am I good enough because they want to fuck me?” Another assumption, that while true for some women, both in and out of the sex industry, is not accurate and all too over used for all of us. My value does not come from who might be watching me naked or sticking his dick in me nor does it have much to do with my ‘moral flexibility’. Sorry if that does not add up, fall in line with your experiences with other women in this sort of work, but that is the way it is for me at least. Once again, what happens with many is not true for all.
“This is not meant in any way as a criticism as such, but even if I was ok with having done sex work, and if I was still doing it, I would quietly go about doing my job, I would not publicise or glorify it in any way, really, out of sheer respect for my sisters who have no choice but to fuck men they don't like, who are traffiked or who, who are forced into the work by circumstances beyond their control, those who just cannot make ends meet in this unfairly balanced-economically-in-favour-towards men misogynistic world (and this is the majority of women in sex work I'm afraid).”
Once again, an expectation that falls in line with your thoughts and experiences. I don’t feel bad about talking about my job, and I think I do not necessarily glorify it as a whole…I, like you, speak about my experiences and what I know and what I have seen, both good and bad. And I have stated countless times now, I do believe, that I know that my experiences in my job are not the truth for many and I detest the fact that there are women forced into this and that something needs to be done to help them out, and that I have actually helped with that myself. Though the ratios may be skewed, there are people in this line of work who do not hate it, and we don’t deserve to be told to shut up any more than any other woman, regardless of what we have to say.
“I would think twice about publicly stating any personal positives around sex work as there are too many men around who actually believe most prostitutes enjoy every encounter and generally enjoy the work - the opposite is true, and to glorify prostitution (that word will be jumped on, but I do have problems sometimes finding the right word sorry), is to kind of spit in the face of the prostitutes who hate what they do, and is perpetuation the myth and the lie that men want to believe the prostitution is somehow empowering - it is certainly not for most prostitutes. But respect to you, as I know prostitution is not an easy option.”
Well, I do far less prostitution as most people think of it than I suppose you imagine, unless you truly do consider fucking on film for money exactly the same as other forms of prostitution. I do like making porn, I do like stripping most of the time, both were, in truth, pretty easy options for me. And as far as hooking goes, I do have a serious amount of say in who and what I will or will not do. And I have also stated that I am lucky and unusual in this. I have also told more than a few men, here in the blog world and in real life, that if they assume every woman they pay to have sex with likes it or is not somehow forced into it or doing it for all the wrong reasons, they are idiots, because most do not like it and do not have the choices some of us have.
“I say all this with the utmost consideration, but I question your motives. Thanks for reading”
And even after all I have said, I suspect you will continue to question my motives because people do not like to hear or believe that which does not fit into their own experiences or motivations, but I cannot really change that or make anyone understand, despite how much I wish I could.
RE
Oh and one other thing...
This is not meant in any way as a criticism as such, but even if I was ok with having done sex work, and if I was still doing it, I would quietly go about doing my job, I would not publicise or glorify it in any way, really, out of sheer respect for my sisters who have no choice but to fuck men they don't like, who are traffiked or who, who are forced into the work by circumstances beyond their control, those who just cannot make ends meet in this unfairly balanced-economically-in-favour-towards men misogynistic world (and this is the majority of women in sex work I'm afraid).
So, basically RE should just shut up because there are people who might not to hear her speaking the truth about her own life.
I do not understand how someone speaking about their own life and their own feelings is in any way a judgment on ALL SEX WORKERS or all anything.
Silencing, much?
It is her choice as to what she publishes - I'm saying what I would do and obviously have hit a raw nerve. I am not judging anyone.
All I'm saying is that many men will read this and yes, they will want to take re's stance and apply it to all prostitutes, the majority who do not like the job or like fucking men that they do not want to. The men will see this as validation for fucking any prostitute - they love hearing only positive angles on prostitution as this assuages their consciences - sad but true. Many prostitutes who despise the work do not have voices. I do, I have access to a pc, and I am presenting a view, as a sex worker (ex) that many sex workers, given the chance would express also.
My comments were made to perhaps make others reading this blog think just a little bit - especially the men reading. It was not my intention to get anyone's hackles or to provoke a reactionary defense.
"This is not meant in any way as a criticism as such, but even if I was ok with having done sex work, and if I was still doing it, I would quietly go about doing my job, I would not publicise or glorify it in any way, really, out of sheer respect for my sisters who have no choice but to fuck men they don't like, who are traffiked or who, who are forced into the work by circumstances beyond their control, those who just cannot make ends meet in this unfairly balanced-economically-in-favour-towards men misogynistic world (and this is the majority of women in sex work I'm afraid)."
Anonymous, let me say straight out that I probably share your perspective on porn and the sex industry more than RE's. I am sorry you had awful experiences and I'm glad you were able to get out and move on from the industry. But I think you have misinterpreted RE's intentions. She is blogging about her experiences as a woman who has been silenced because - as she accepts - many women in the sex industry do not have the positive experience she has and many feminists refuse to accept her experiences as valid because of this. She is completely entitled to do this.
I haven't read all of her blog, but nowhere have I come across any attept to glorify the sex industry, to deny the harm it does or to deny the misogynistic nature of much porn, nor have I seen any attempt by RE to speak on behalf of all women in the sex industry or to frame her personal experiences as the same of other women in the industry. Nor does she ignore the negative experiences of women in the industry.
RE is not appearing on TV shows discussing how wonderful sex work is for all women, she is in no way making herself out to be some spokeswoman for female sex workers, she is just voicing her own opinion and experiences, and I don't think this is letting anyone down. I fully accept that she enjoys and freely chooses the work she does, despite the fact that I am opposed to the sex industry in general from an ideological perspective and because it harms many many women, and I think it is wrong to make her out to be the enemy (this isn't directed at you, just in general).
Anonymous:
It's a touchy subject because no woman, no matter her experiences, wants to be told she should NOT speak...about anything.
All I'm saying is that many men will read this and yes, they will want to take re's stance and apply it to all prostitutes, the majority who do not like the job or like fucking men that they do not want to. The men will see this as validation for fucking any prostitute - they love hearing only positive angles on prostitution as this assuages their consciences - sad but true. Many prostitutes who despise the work do not have voices. I do, I have access to a pc, and I am presenting a view, as a sex worker (ex) that many sex workers, given the chance would express also.
Well, the fault there is with the MEN who would take RenEv's statements about her own life and apply them to all sex workers. To my mind, suggesting that a sex worker should shut up because of this is a bit too close to telling women not to get drunk or dress "slutty" or go out late or walk home alone OR ELSE. Too close for comfort. The problem is with the men in this scenario. Let's work to correct the misguided, privileged, sexist ideas they harbor instead of placing blame on women who choose to speak unabashedly about their own lives. I've had enough of shaming women, personally.
Amen.
And she's not "glorifying" her experiences. She is -not- going, "prostitution is FUN FUN FUN for EVERYONE and if you don't like it, you're a LOSER." She has never said, no one is exploited or abused in pr0n; she has gone out of her way to clarify that she is, in many ways, in the minority. She's been very very clear. She's speaking her truth. -Her- truth. Which, the personal being political and all, is as valid as any other woman's. No more no less.
Sex workers get thrown in jail every day; get blamed by all and sundry, from patriarchs to radical feminists, for all the ills in this world, while still serving a handy function (yep, for the "blamers" too; honestly, sometimes i think, what would some people -do- with themselves if all the pr0nstitution in the world disappeared tomorrow? what d'you do without your bete noir?)
And she's supposed to just keep quiet? -Not- speak her truth, her own, subjective truth, on account of someone, somewhere, might find it painful?
No, I'm sorry, but no. It doesn't work like that. Never has done. You speak your truth. She speaks hers. We -talk-. We get angry, we have other feelings, we work through it.
And me, I am remembering "silence = death," and thinking how very true that is.
As for the men reading this blog: well, one, I for one have never ever considered that feminism is or should be all about "well, what will the men think."
But in any case, I'd rather think that certain men reading say Mr. Evolution's explanation of why he adores RE, career and all, not to mention his takedown of the MRA's...that it would do them at least as much good as oh say a Robert Jensen going shame shame SHAME! shame shame SHAME! you dirty. little. wanker.
because frankly? of the two approaches? the second is by -far- the more familiar to good ol' patriarchy.
...seriously, that above all: i DO NOT GET THIS.
"But the men Might Get Ideas."
I mean...are you -serious?- You're telling another woman to button down and restrain herself because -men- might think thus and-so; and you're calling this -feminism?-
As for making us think; this is not a new argument to anyone here, either.
I do still marvel at it every time it's brought up, though, I have to say.
I mean: really. "What will the Men think." Really.
How about lessons on kick 'em in the 'nads, so "we" don't -have- to care what they think?
I mean seriously: if it really is a "war," as some people who have talked this line have said, then don't mince around. Bring out the guns. Get out the genital-guillotines and the point sticks; let's get down to -business. No, I'm serious. If it's really -that- dire.
Because otherwise, I'm afraid, it's the same old nice Sandra Dees twittering and tuting at the ev0l Rizzos because they're Ruining It For Everyone.
and by the way, anon, I think it's cool and all that you want to speak up for the voiceless masses; but personally i'd probably rate it a little higher if you were speaking -your own- truth here, as well.
just sayin'.
"Let's work to correct the misguided, privileged, sexist ideas they harbor instead of placing blame on women who choose to speak unabashedly about their own lives. I've had enough of shaming women, personally."
Hear, hear.
My comments were made to perhaps make others reading this blog think just a little bit
what makes you think we haven't done?
in fact, most of us have thought quite a lot.
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