Thursday, November 16, 2006

Why Male Feminists (some anyway) completely suck!

Ah, male feminists…not all of them mind you…but those of Robert Jensen’s ilk, really do make me violently angry. Like ‘gimme my guns, I’m goin’ chicken huntin’” angry.

Why you might ask?

Well, because when it really comes down to it, these asshats don’t give a shit about women.

What? What is that you say Renegade? They don’t care about women? But they’re feminists!!!

Ahem. Like hell they are. And if you really look, it’s pretty damn evident. Stay with me here…

Believe it or not, I have read almost everything Bob has written that is out there for public view regarding porno and how degrading to women it is. I stumbled across one of his speeches one day, started reading it, and found myself disagreeing so strongly I then read almost everything else he had penned on the subject (and guess what? I never did come around to agreeing). I then engaged the fellow in a discussion on the matter (where I was treated very dismissively, because, well, you know, I am a girl and I cannot possibly know what I am talking about), and now, Prof. Bob and other feminist men folk are…you guessed it…trying to tell the world how just horrible, mean, painful, nasty, and degrading DP, the dreaded double penetration, a woman taking dick in her vagina and anus at the same time, is. Not because they really care, or know, but because they NEED a cause!

Now yes, surely, of course, some women most certainly do find it all those things, but others do not. And Bob and the FemBoys can tell us over and over how icky and bad it is, but we are not likely to change our minds…no matter how often they tell us. Yes…tell us. Tell us silly women how wrong we are about what we might find erotic or pleasurable with our own bodies (for our own good, of course).

Now, Bob will tell you he does not speak to or for women, he speaks to and for men. Which is, of course, so feminist. He does not seem to listen to women either, unless they agree with him. Which is, of course, so feminist. And what he does tell these men that he is speaking too is that not only is porn bad and degrading, but well, the stuff in porn is not anything women want. Even if they tell men (and him) that they do want it. Because, well, you know, even if a woman says she likes it, no woman actually likes things like anal, DP, gangbangs, throatfucking, cum on her face, a little rough stuff, some role play or S&M. She does not really like it, no matter what she says. He knows. He is telling you. Listen to Almighty Bob, Professor, Academic, Noted Speaker, Feminist, Man. He knows much more than the woman about what she wants and why, no matter what she tells you. Listen to him…the feminist…who cares about women.

Bob is also very concerned about all those poor, misguided porn sluts out there who obviously…universally…all of them…have no idea what they want and have no possible way to choose what they want to do for a living. He knows this, so he will speak for these poor women too…all of them…because he knows, he has seen and empathized and he is right! Porn is horrible, not only for the people who make it but the people who watch it. It is degrading and evil and exploits women and desensitizes men and is just bad, bad, bad and no one should watch it or spend money on it. Ever. Well, except Bob. Who does so for his research, of course, brave and noble knight and defender of women and feminism that he is! He sucks it up and steels his emotions and quells his nausea and watches lots and lots of porn, especially the degrading, Gonzo stuff like “Gag Factor” (NSFW, roughporn! may be triggering.) where the women are abused and humiliated and treated like crap. And he says it is so hard to do, to see these poor women treated like that. He empathizes with them…feels for them…wants other men to do the same. And even if the women in those films say they enjoy it, or that they do not care and it is the freakin’ job, well, they are wrong and need saving. Obviously too screwed up to think and speak for themselves. And porn is wrong. And he only spends money on it to watch it and see how wrong it is, thus supporting the industry…for academic reasons of course. For women. For feminism!

And Bob has fans, other men, who see his noble work and spread his word and offer it up for discussion, seeking answers…is DP degrading to women, men? Well, of course it is! Bob says so! Bob, who has never been double penetrated in his life, who has never DP’ed a woman in his life, who is not a woman, knows! Bob knows it is degrading and humiliating and probably painful. It is, it is, it is! And when the women come to speak on such matters, well, if the mere thought makes them weep or physically ill, well, there there, female, have a tissue…it is so very, very bad, and we men understand, we empathize like Bob has taught us. We are here for you, for women, for feminism! When women come and say we like DP or we fantasize about DP or do not see anything wrong with a woman having sex with multiple men…well, then, like Bob, they are not speaking to or for women, they are there for men, spreading empathy, showing them the evil and degrading nature of porn and these acts…for the women, in the name of feminism! (And by the way, bitches, shut the fuck up, what do YOU know about what you might like sexually, anyway?) Yet when these uppity women do not silence themselves and leave the discussions about what women can and cannot enjoy sexually, what is painful or degrading or vicious to them to the menfolk (and the weeping, physically ill women), they are SELFISH. You know, you selfish women who like DP or have some idea about what may be erotic in your heads or feel good in those cursed fuckholes of yours, it is NOT all about you, bitches! It’s about empathy, and knowing what women really want, and not degrading them! It’s about what we men feel and learn about the issue, not about your thoughts and opinions and experiences. Because we care about women, and feminism! Bob has shown us the errors of our unsympathetic, unempathetic, porn-watching degrading ways, using the colorful language of porn about your anatomy and offering explicit examples of the filthy degradation to which porn women are subjected and what YOU say about what you may or might not like sexually does not matter, because Bob is right, this stuff is bad and degrading, and you are wrong! And we are empathetic, feminist men! We care about you! We care about you enough to speak about you and for you and ignore what you actually say and think and save you from yourselves, because we care about feminism! We are feminist men!

And, women, if you keep insisting that you might like these horrible, degrading acts, in life or in fantasy, like so many of you seem to, we will kindly remind you that you have no idea what you are talking about, or what Bob is talking about, that you are a ‘porn posse’-troll, you will not be addressed or heard…and well, fuck you, woman, what the hell do you know? We’re not speaking to or for you, neither is Bob, this is about the men, and what we think about womens sexuality, and what is degrading and humiliating and bad and hurtful to you, so shut the hell up so we can discuss and decide this. Because we care about you. About women. About Feminism.

And there you have it folks- ‘The truth about Bob and the FemBoys.’

RenEv
Henchwoman
Lt. Colonel of the Fightin’ First Porn Posse Battalion

61 comments:

Rootietoot said...

"It’s about what we men feel and learn about the issue, not about your thoughts and opinions and experiences."

Yeah, exactly. It's about the Almighty Issue, not about individuals with minds of their own.

ok ok , by agreeing with you I have just secured my place as Yes-Toady.

'cept that you know how I feel about Porn, and that hasn't changed, but still, I think you've got a right to like it if you want to. I don't understand it, but I accept it.

Which calls to mind that fabulous song Groucho Marx did:
"If I didn't commence it, I'm against it!"

belledame222 said...

Male -radical- feminists, I would say; have only encountered a few, but they've all been deeply creepy and strange.

Male feminists or "pro-feminists"--eh, as a group I have no beef with 'em. some of them don't really practice what they preach so well; but that's kind of true of pretty much any kind of "ally," sadly.

belledame222 said...

--oh gawd, he would write for CounterPunch. i'm sure there are some people/articles thereof what aren't complete douches, but so far my experience of it..well, yeah. speaking of stereotypes: that to me is the home of yer classic puritanical (in many ways) angry-humorless-self-important lefty 'bag.

oh and mostly male and white, for all the chest-beating about feminism and anti-racism.

belledame222 said...

as for speaking to/for men, well, that's fine, but it still doesn't get you off the hook wrt LISTENING to WOMEN, if you're gonna call yourself a feminist. sorry. back to feminism 101 with you.

belledame222 said...

but yeah: classic. "Shut UP, I'm being empathetic here! Witness my empathic skills! LALALALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA..."

Renegade Evolution said...

"as for speaking to/for men, well, that's fine, but it still doesn't get you off the hook wrt LISTENING to WOMEN, if you're gonna call yourself a feminist. sorry. back to feminism 101 with you. "

exactly. of course, the cynic in me says that if bob did not have this 'empathy for the men folk against the evils of porn' agenda, well, his wallet would be thinner...

Rootietoot said...

I went to Dissident Voice and read a couple of his articles, including the one causing all the hoopla here. What stood out with bells and whistles is the remarkably self-centered tone of his writing. It's all "I, me,my". Correct me if I'm wrong (uneducated plebian that I am), but shouldn't a professor of journalism perhaps have a better grip on the idea of objectivity in writing? I realize that the media generally tends to have a liberal lean, but holy mackerel! This guy, who is teaching journalists of the future, is one big walking agenda with a heaping side order of issues. I don't see how the man could possibly be at peace with himself, and that's a sad, sad situation.

Jane said...

Ren ev,

This entry is extremely bitchin'. "Male feminists" write and speak out against things like double pentration and porn-in-general for the same reason Evangelical Christian men do, because thinking about it so much it gives them their favorite kind of boner: the one they feel a little bit guilty about.


rootietoot,

For an uneducated plebian, you sure know your polysyllabic monikers.

Renegade Evolution said...

J:

Thank you, I do think it is one of my finer rants...er...works, actually.

Now I am gonna go watch some porn...with DP.

antiprincess said...

It's all "I, me,my".
see, I get that criticism all the time. But I'm not claiming to be a journalist, nor objective.

I realize that the media generally tends to have a liberal lean, but holy mackerel! This guy, who is teaching journalists of the future, is one big walking agenda with a heaping side order of issues.

mmm...deep-fried issues with ego remoulade...it's always about food with you, is it, Rootie?

I don't see how the man could possibly be at peace with himself, and that's a sad, sad situation.

especially since he's put himself in the position of declaring what's healthy and what's not.

antiprincess said...

You have acquitted yourself admirably, Lieutenant Colonel RenEv.

Well done!

Antigeneral

Renegade Evolution said...

::slautes::

Just doing my duty, ma'am.

mtc said...

You've made me think of the old joke about the cowboy captured by the Indians, you know the one to which the punch line is "I SAID POSSE!"

belledame222 said...

!!

I ("I") think there's a difference between using "I-statements" when you're clearly talking about a -subjective- experience--in fact i think -more- people could be doing that, actually--and using it as a way to demonstrate your great Empathy for the Other. not to mention, once you start getting into blahblah is -inherently- blee, wellll...that's pretty damn thin ice already, bubba; maybe you'd better have something better to fall back on than "no one I talked to likes blahblah, or at least i'm conveniently forgetting the ones who did! QED."

witchy-woo said...

Sorry if I'm spoiling the party here but...

I think Bob Jensen has done a lot of good work with his questioning of the satus quo. We're all agreed the status quo sucks, right?

He writes from a hetero-normative male upbringing. He writes what he's learned. And a lot of what he's learned is not wrong.

For example - the DP thing? Some women might like that, might ask for it and completely enjoy it. His point has absolutely nothing to do with whether some/any/all women want/like DP. Rather, it's about the money making potential for men (i.e. pimps) and the desire of the johns they supply to witness their assumed sexual suffering of women.

I think that Bob Jenson is saying that there is no place for most women's sexuality in mainstream pornography because (m/s) pornography - by it's very "language" - is about the denial of women's place as autonomous sexual people.

And, no, I don't think Bob Jenson thinks he's speaking for women. I think he acknowledges that we don't have a voice for ourselves and that he believes we ought to have - but I'm not getting the impression that he thinks he's it.

I think he's just a man who's questioning the role pornography plays in the violent, sexist oppression of women. I don't think he was telling women what "we" like. I don't have the impression that he was telling us what "we" want. Rather, I believe he was questioning the motivation of men who get off on depictions of women in what they believe to be suffering in a sexual way and the huge profits to be made from images of women enduring that sexual suffering.

tbh, I'm not understanding the hostility here. Bob Jenson isn't for one minute trying to dictate bedroom etiquette. He's trying to get men to question their appetite for depictions of sexually humiliated women. And that's not to say women are humiliated in such depictions - just that male viewers see them (us) as such. He isn't writing about women - he's writing about men.

I thought that was obvious...

Renegade Evolution said...

Witchy:

My problem with Robert Jensen is not that he tries to instill empathy in men...nor that he speaks to men. My problem with him, and others of his ilk, is he often assumes to speak FOR women who are often capable of doing it themselves or OVER women who disagree with him. He mentioned something about never speaking to a woman, outside of porn, who admitted to liking DP. Well, I did, before I ever got paid for or photographed doing it, and I do not think I am the only one who has ever said as much...and I am really not pleased with the way OTHER women- not in the porn biz- who have since this all started who have admitted they too liked it are being mocked, ignored and demonized by Jensen's supporters. If Jensen wants to dislike porn and try and instill empathy in men, great. However, he cannot speak about female sexuality at all, nor should he, and mean to or not, he does.

Amber said...

For example - the DP thing? Some women might like that, might ask for it and completely enjoy it. His point has absolutely nothing to do with whether some/any/all women want/like DP. Rather, it's about the money making potential for men (i.e. pimps) and the desire of the johns they supply to witness their assumed sexual suffering of women.

Well. I am all about questioning the status quo - and that goes for the assumption that lies herein, as well. Let's assume for a moment that we are dealing here only with men who do like watching DP in prn because they like to witness the sexual suffering of a woman. So, see, another part of the status quo is this assumption, that if there's a DP, the woman must be suffering. I think it would be interesting to dismantle that a bit, find out where that comes from. Could there be a bit of "nice girls don't" lurking in there? Because that is some old, patriarchal stuff, and old habits die hard.

And, another caveat, I am not talking here about scenes in which the woman is OBVIOUSLY in physical pain. Because there's plenty of porn out there with DP where the woman appears to enjoy it. Why do we assume then that she doesn't?

belledame222 said...

>I think he acknowledges that we don't have a voice for ourselves

Excuse me; that's -exactly- the problem some of us are having. "We" DO have a voice for ourselves, thank you. And if it's not being heard, it's partly 'cuz paternalistic jerks like him keep talking over us!

belledame222 said...

and anyway, he's not instilling "empathy;" he's proselytizing. Big difference.

Yeah, men can talk to other men about male privilege, fine. I still do not believe it is a man's place to tell another man how a woman feels. That goes quadruple when the -very- strong suggestion is that this is how ALL women feel. And then, when other women show up to say, well I'm a woman and I don't feel this way, get dismissed.


i mean, w-w, this is so ironic, okay; you're the one who comes in with the "men this" and "men that," whenever some guy says something you don't care for.

but now here's a guy who's -totally- taking space, who's -totally- taking a paternalistic stance, who's telling -some- women that he doesn't have to listen to them, essentially...and you're fine with this? Because he hates the pr0n, so he must be okay? I just do not get this, and probably never will.

belledame222 said...

and you know what; this is bogus, I'm sorry. If he's truly concerned about the exploitation of women in the films, then talk about that. if he's concerned about male coercion of women in real life relationships, then talk about that. It seems to me that there's -plenty- a real ally could say about all of that--and many do--without going into his -research- on whether x number of women like (particular sex act). I'm sorry; there's just. no. need. for him to go into it at all. as far as i'm concerned. it is: CREEPY.

seriously, w-w: how d'you know he doesn't go home and jerk off to this his very own self? sounds like he's got enough material to last him a lifetime. maybe the righteousness adds a special little frisson, you know?

and frankly, the business about the detailed wanting some guy to spread 'em in front of a bunch of other guys...

yeah. there's "straight" men who dig that sort of thing, too.

personally i prefer the ones who are at least more upfront about it.

Renegade Evolution said...

WW:

I might also add, a lot of people complain about porn because, among other things, they feel it does not express ANY, one iota, of female driven fantasy or a female idea of what might be pleasurable sex. However, there are several females here lately, just in this neighborhood as it were, who admit to LIKING and/or fantasizing about things like anal, spanking, sex on the rough side, and yes, DP. Women. Not men. Not porn stars. Real, honest to god women with sex drives, fantasies, and experiences. So, if a porn film depicts a woman being double penetrated, and all those other things, and she is NOT being called names, and seems to be having a grand old time engaging in the act...does it not stand to reason that her scene in that film IS, in fact, representing a female fantasy/desire/act a real woman might do? That perhaps, such an act in said porn film is NOT all about the men, but might appeal to that particular desire in women who harbor/enjoy it?

witchy-woo said...

Well my impression is that Bob Jenson is just asking men to think a bit more deeply about what they do.

I take your point BD - we have our own voice. But who listens? Other women, that's who. Everyone and his wife is more than willing to have repeated back to him what he said about us in the first place but he doesn't speak for every woman any more that Mr Jenson does - though Mr Jenson's view is wider, in my opinion.

And RE, while you may know countless women who yay DP I know countless women who say "fuck off, you're kidding me. I'd rather die!" Which set of women get the loudest voice when represented in porn?

It seems men get to tell us what we think/feel/want whichever side of their divide we sit.

And that kind of reiterates my point. I don't think Bob Jenson was telling us. He was asking a question and saying what he thought from what he knew. I found it kind of refreshing, actually.

From what I know of him, Bob Jenson questions men. In order to do that he states what he knows about men and their view of women and their take on pornography. Personally, I appreciate that. There are so few men that even consider porn as anything other than 'entertainment' without even considering the wider implications.

Don't misunderstand me (or misrepresent me, please, BD) I'm seriously appreciating that someone is asking the questions that make people think in terms of "they" and not "I" - if only because these are questions I've asked myself many times.

This isn't about women - what women like or want or enjoy. This is about men and patriarchal capitalism and the commodification of humanity. It's about the denial of individual voices - both men's and women's (but mostly women's) - and Bob Jenson is one of the first men to actually speak out about it.

I rate him for that.

Renegade Evolution said...

WW:

"And RE, while you may know countless women who yay DP I know countless women who say "fuck off, you're kidding me. I'd rather die!" Which set of women get the loudest voice when represented in porn?"

Well, obviously the women who yay it. That would be obvious. I suspect, perhaps, that is because the other set truly have no interest in and/or hate porn.

belledame222 said...

You know what though: he's not actually saying anything all that very different from a conservative anti-pr0n guy. And he does not make me feel heard. He doesn't speak for me. And I don't want him doing me no favors.

Renegade Evolution said...

TOTALLY off topic, but I think Ambers site has been hacked. Everytime I try to go there, as soon as the page loads, I am redirected to some wierd thing that says "I am the maurading marsuipial" or some such nonsense...

belledame222 said...

and you know what: there are men who talk about porn in quite thoughtful and interesting ways; Roger Horrocks, for one author. Bark/Bites is an online male feminist (pro-feminist) who talks quite well to and about men. But the way he does it is very different. And I still don't always agree with him; but he -does- actually address real dynamics -between men,- male psyche, yes. He doesn't come in like some creepy Chivalrous Charlie with an unhealthy fixation on other peoples' orifices; he doesn't need to watch mountains of frigging pr0n to know, gee, certain male-female dynamics in this cultuer are rather fucked up, aren't they. -No one- -needs- to watch that much pr0n, understand? I swear to Christ this guy talks more luridly and more porn-fixatedly than most of the "pro-porn" people I know.

god, you know: there's giving a fuck about womens' rights; and then there's merely having your own increasingly torqued ways of getting off.

and he keeps saying "empathy." I do not think that word means what he think it means.

belledame222 said...

That's weird, RE; I just went there and it seems to be loading fine. do you maybe have a bad link?

belledame222 said...

>"And RE, while you may know countless women who yay DP I know countless women who say "fuck off, you're kidding me. I'd rather die!" Which set of women get the loudest voice when represented in porn?">

But he's not limiting it to porn, now, is he, when he speculates (and pretty much answers) whether DP is an "inherently sexist act." Unless someone thinks that porn is all that really matters, here. And he explicitly says that he's never met a woman who says she likes it.

He's talked to RE. She said she did like it.

He. is. lying.

yeah?

and again: this kind of repulsed fascination is not necessary in order to have a problem with porn as exploitation. It is not necessary to determine what -all women- *really* do or don't like. You're concerned that women are being coerced? -Focus on that.-

jesus, it's not so complicated, is it?

Rootietoot said...

What I got out of reading Mr. Jensen's stuff (not just the article discussed here) is an overwhelming sense of condescension. You'd think a journalism instructor would be be better at objectivity. I also got the impression of contempt for people was writing about. (except,of, course, for the people who agree with him, and there was a healthy dose of paternalism mixed in with that). It seems like a general attitude with him, not just a particular view re: DP or feminism.

This, of course, is my own impression, based on what I read and my experiences with similar personalities. I am in no way attempting to speak for any particular demographic or tell anyone what they ought to believe.

And I still don't like porn, and DP gives me the willies.

pass the popcorn.

Rootietoot said...

hey I got the marauding marsupial thing too. How rude!

Steve a.k.a. Steved said...

Renegade:

I have empathy. I am a male submissive. I have to keep a very tight lid on this in my proffessional life and also personal life. I have to pretend to be something else most of the time. This Mr Jensen is selling the conformist line, what will he do next, burn witches? Yes he is very enlightend to sing to the choir while excluding any variation. All I know is I hear in the background "you're sick, There's something wrong with you. Let us schedule your lobotomy to rid you of those nasty feelings".

No Thank you. Take your conformist Moaist leninist Orwellian ass out of my sex life. If a woman doesn't like this speak up. If she isn't being heard learn martial arts. If someone tries to DP you against your will rip his balls off...but for all thats right sake don't tell me I have to alter my personal life to make yours easier. I have had it with making the offendees at ease.

Of course I dont have the anatomy to be DP'd so I don't try to speak for a woman but for myself.

Anyway sorry for the rant and renegade this is your backyard, please tell me if I put the asshat on but I felt strongly and wanted to state my opinion.

So renegade if I am not a feminist what am I?

antiprincess said...

I thought that was obvious...

clearly, it ain't.

I do thank you for taking the time to explain things a little less snidely than some other folks. It makes significantly more sense to me now.

I still don't agree, and my hostility is nowhere near abated, but I understand a lot better what he's getting at.

My hostility is not directed at Jensen so much as his acolytes. I'm sure Dr. J. himself is, you know, committed to The Cause and works very hard doing activism has unimpeachable academic and lefty creds, and has a lot to say that I would agree with on other topics.

Maybe my kvetch with him amounts to nothing more than an issue with imprecise language.

But, see, that phrase "I don't know, and I don't have to know" if DP is sexist - I just can't swallow that.

(And I'll swallow just about any damn thing.)

Because, to me, it does matter how the assumed-to-be-humiliated party feels. Because, to me, if the supposed humiliate-ee doesn't feel humiliated, the power of the humiliate-er is drastically diminished, to the point of nearly disappearing.

Because, to me, the frame matters a hell of a lot less than the actual picture.

Consider chocolate cake. It's just a cake. but when advertised on television, and accompanied by the right music, and lit with the right lights, and captioned as "decadent" and "sinful", - damn - that chocolate cake is a one way ticket to HELL and anyone who likes this cake, or eats this cake, is very very naughty indeed.

but it's just a cake.

Renegade Evolution said...

BD:

"Because, to me, it does matter how the assumed-to-be-humiliated party feels. Because, to me, if the supposed humiliate-ee doesn't feel humiliated, the power of the humiliate-er is drastically diminished, to the point of nearly disappearing."

EXACTLY. And for fucksake, I really wish people would stop acting like NO ONE ever gets alittle thrill out of 'being bad'...whether "bad" entails having that unhealthy cigarette or eating three desserts or, eek, doing something very un-politically correct in the bedroom! Sometimes guilty pleasures are better than the guilt free ones.

belledame222 said...

>It seems men get to tell us what we think/feel/want whichever side of their divide we sit.

To you, maybe. But why do we have to be listening at all? Why do "we" care -what- "men" (all 3,909,876,303 of them, especially the one with the goiter) think? Seriously; what is this 'we," finally?

As Alex put it:

>I think that maybe there is something to the idea that people are and can be influenced by ideas-not-their-own, and that some people will absorb certain cultural messages with those ideas. ("Hot sluts beg for cum on their face!" turns into "Men will like me if I let them cum on my face," etc.)

BUT, I think the solution to that is to teach self-esteem and sexual education early in life, both to boys and girls. If we teach girls how to distinguish the things they want from the things they think they should want, that goes far further than destroying the porn industry ever would. Same goes for boys. If we teach frank discussion, without all the silly giggly embarrassed-ness that tends to surround sex, I think the problem would shrink dramatically.>


http://alexmegami.blogspot.com/

or, as cassandra put it:

""See, I think if you want to call yourself a feminist maybe what you really need to grok is that whatever a woman wants to put in the orifice of her choice is no one's damn business but her own. Is that really so hard to understand?"


my latest anthem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbll0nc_cv4&eurl=#

Amber said...

First of all, sorry about the marauding marsupial thing - that comes from the Truth Laid Bear javascript thingy, which was screwing up yesterday, so I was experimenting with various techy mechanisms of forcing it to load after the rest of the page, and well, I forgot certain browsers don't like that... Anyway, without getting too geekified up in here, the point is, it should be back to normal now.

Witchy-Woo, I hear what you are saying, but I'm sorry to say it still just rings hollow to me wrt Jensen and his acolytes. I understand what you are getting at, but still, when I read Jensen's writing and that of some people defending him (eg, Stan Goff), I come away with an overpowering, icky feeling of paternalism and being told what to do. And being told that my opinion and my feelings don't matter.

This is something I'm pretty familiar with, having grown up in a highly fundie Christian area of the South. I'm used to being told that, for various reasons, I'm wrong, my sexuality is wrong, and it doesn't matter what I think or feel, I should stop being so selfish, I need to think about the MEN, and how do I think all this looks to them?? What might they think?? And son on and so forth.

And eventually I just want to scream, because you know what? I DON'T CARE what they think!! And I realized a long time ago - thanks to therapy! - that no matter what, I can't change what other people think. I just can't. I can only be true to myself and live an honest life. People will think what they want. And that is beyond my control. Be the change you want to see, etc.

Plus, you know, it's not like abstaining from any and every sexual act that might be construed as "degrading" has ever really prevented women from being victimized, sooooo...

Deoridhe said...

I take your point BD - we have our own voice. But who listens? Other women, that's who.

I find this line of thought very disturbing. "No one listens to us anyway, so let the man talk! They listen to him!"

First of all, there's no evidence they, whoever "they" may be, do listen to him. Second of all, that's a defeatest approach. That's assuming that although women can speak, we shouldn't because it doesn't matter. I don't buy that. In fact, I refuse to buy that.

Hel, if there's one thing I've learned from reading women's blogs, it's that often other women don't listen! That doesn't mean the people speaking aren't reaching other women, like myself, who read but don't blog.

belledame222 said...

Yeah, seriously. All of that I also experience; and frankly, the implications are: well, -women don't count.- Or, we can't do it for ourselves. Fuck that noise.

Y'know, if the issue is straight women needing men to listen in their personal relationships, then for fuck's sake isn't there a more direct way of doing this without dragging the rest of us into it as well? I mean.

And if it's having a voice in changing the greater political landscape to womens' advantage (and no i do NOT mean frigging -porn-) --well, exqueeze me, but again, I don't care to sit back and wait for Big Papa to do it for me; if I don't think other women hearing me matters, what's the bloody point, for heaven's sake?

belledame222 said...

and, okay, I should say -certain- straight women and their relationship issues.

Because, lookit: I'm fairly certain that it is possible for a scenario like oh say this to happen:

M: Gee, honey, I just saw this really hot porn tape where the woman was doing ___. Whaddya say we try it out, huh?

W: No, I don't like that.

M: Oh, okay then; we'll do something else.

Now, if M there keeps nagging and nagging and nagging, then isn't that a problem that goes -beyond- the pr0n? Maybe the supra-feminists should deal with -that.-

And if the woman can't or won't actually say what she does and doesn't want, well, goddamit, that's a problem too.

If she -does- say what she doesn't want and he goes ahead and does his crap anyway, then I'm sorry, but what they flying fuck does it have to do with pron? He's an asshole. Perhaps an abusive one. And you know what, I'll bet he's an abusive asshole -in other contexts, too.-

Crusading against pr0n ain't gonna change that. Getting some academic wadpants to lecture him about how shameful his degenerate sexual desires are ain't gonna change that. That is the sort of thing that needs to be dealt at a much more fundamental level. And if he doesn't change (for ultimately if he's an abusive asshole, change is up to him), then now the question is on the best way for her to LEAVE.

If it's -not- like that, if he's actually a decent guy but there's just major communication problems, well, again, I repeat myself: speaking clearly? Really kind of fucking helps.

I'd trade 1,000 Goffs and Jensens for one round of assertiveness training and another of martial arts. and another 1,000 for some basic fucking straightforward communication 101.

belledame222 said...

and frankly, Goff accusing antiprincess of being a "troll," much less modding her out (aw, diddums scare the big stwong man?) not to mention him accusing her of leading troll expeditions to BB when she -was DEFENDING BB-, I'm sorry, but anyone that frigging disingenuous is no one i want or need on my "side" for anything.

Amber said...

Because, lookit: I'm fairly certain that it is possible for a scenario like oh say this to happen:

M: Gee, honey, I just saw this really hot porn tape where the woman was doing ___. Whaddya say we try it out, huh?

W: No, I don't like that.

M: Oh, okay then; we'll do something else.


Yep, scenarios like this have happened several times in my life. Except, porn has never been mentioned (ie it's never been, "I saw this in porn, I'd like to try it" - it's just been "I'd like to try this" or "I have this fantasy, I'd like to try it") - and, also? Actually, more often than not, I've been the one to suggest we try something, and my partner has said he isn't comfortable with it. And then we move on. No harm no foul.

Not sure what this comment has to do with anything, but I'm still processing all the rest and trying ot think of something intelligent to say...

belledame222 said...

Another charming man I'd forgotten about: Marty Rimm. and others.

http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/6805/articles/pornscare/godwin-rimm-activists.txt

Rootietoot said...

BD sez: "M: Gee, honey, I just saw this really hot porn tape where the woman was doing ___. Whaddya say we try it out, huh?

W: No, I don't like that.

M: Oh, okay then; we'll do something else."

Last night the conversation went like this:
RT:"Theres all this talk about DP stuff"

SD:"What's that?"

RT:"you know, you, me and a toy"

SD: "Really?" (looks hopeful)

RT: "No."

SD: "Ok."

OOOOhhh! The Oppression! I'm Suffocating!

sorry y'all, I am truly havnig a hard time taking this whole thing seriously. I'm trying, but I'm failing to understand.

belledame222 said...

"gag factor," i have to say, I do not grok at all. besides that particular um style not being my cup of tea, i can't think of anything (well, very few things) -less- erotic than having my gag reflex triggered. but i know people who do like it (i mean, doing it, going for the gag), so...shrug.

or maybe i misunderstood and it's deepthroating that's liked, because it -doesn't- actually trip their/yer gag reflex?

Amber said...

Heh, Jensen is going to be at this conference in March. Perhaps a field trip to Boston is in order? I'm sure I could find a way to raise the money to go... ;)

belledame222 said...

oh, they have a slide presentation. three guesses what's on the slides.

for fuck's sake. i dunno.

Iamcuriousblue said...

"oh, they have a slide presentation. three guesses what's on the slides."

If you scroll down the page for the conference there's a presentation called "Pornography and Pop Culture: Rethinking Activism", which is basically saying that anti-porn slide shows are starting to look a wee bit dated and they maybe need to update things a bit. One suggestion is to switch from slides to PowerPoint – into the 21st Century at last, I guess.

Iamcuriousblue said...

"He's trying to get men to question their appetite for depictions of sexually humiliated women. And that's not to say women are humiliated in such depictions - just that male viewers see them (us) as such."

I'll just point out that he doesn't seem to get male porn viewers either. Maybe a subset of porn viewers specifically want to see humiliation or degradation of women, but that's hardly all porn viewers.

It this point, its usually pointed out to me that my patriarchal blinders keep me from seeing the degradation that's supposedly present in all porn. But how does that square with the idea that since I'm a male porn viewer, I specifically want to see humiliation of women?

Iamcuriousblue said...

M: Gee, honey, I just saw this really hot porn tape where the woman was doing ___. Whaddya say we try it out, huh?

W: No, I don't like that.


Or what about the situation -

M: I'd really like to try X and Y with you. Would you like to?

W: Yes, sounds like fun.

(Or even – W: Sure, it will be fun. You've never done X and Y before? Z is also fun, by the way.)

Sounds open and shut, right? Except that more than a few busybodies will say, "well, the woman is clearly just acting out patriarchal expectations – she's a victim/perpetrator of raunch culture – blah, blah, blah". Or, "You just pressured/coerced her into consenting."

Hence, the tremendous chasm I see between what I've learned about what women want and don't want from actual women I've been with vs what feminism claims they want and don't want.

belledame222 said...

What about women who get off to gay male pr0n? I know a bunch of 'em. Is that about degrading the men, or themselves, or are they too weird to even consider, or what?

belledame222 said...

>Yep, scenarios like this have happened several times in my life. Except, porn has never been mentioned (ie it's never been, "I saw this in porn, I'd like to try it" - it's just been "I'd like to try this" or "I have this fantasy, I'd like to try it") - and, also? Actually, more often than not, I've been the one to suggest we try something, and my partner has said he isn't comfortable with it. And then we move on. No harm no foul.>

Well, the baseline assumption I keep running into in the anti-pr0n discussions--well, a couple, but one at least -implies,- to me, that a woman's voice is going to be ignored. Presumably that includes within the relationship. Clearly, drastic measures are called for, mostly having to do with lecturing the men about their degrading desires.

and I just keep thinking: okay, but is this -really- the bottom line issue, here? -Really?-

I mean, if all the pr0n in the world were magically swallowed up, would the men suddenly transform into sensitive, empathic guys?

And why does this seem like a more desirable, hell a more -attainable- goal, than, oh I don't know, trying to

1) teach basic communication skills

2) teach women not to put up with any crap

3) teach women and men to understand their own bodies, each others' bodies, name their desires, learn about "yes" and "no" and "I do/don't want to" with no qualifiers, and other good boundaries?

I mean, the fact that places like (i'm sorry, but) the Den and genderberg and the overall radfemblogosphere are, well, -not very good- about boundaries in general;

you know, the whole "I'm cold, put on a sweater" deal?

-maybe-, just -maybe,- there's a connection here.

and I am not saying that -all- of it can't in fact be traced back to "patriarchy," institutionalized sex-role stereotyping, what you will;

Because, you know, the funny thing about teaching women that we don't have a voice is that that doesn't automatically go away just because we read a few feminist books and got the O.K. from some people who seem to know what they're talking about that saying "no" in THIS context is now, finally, O.K.

still doesn't really help, imo, with the whole, "YOU are okay, YOU have the right to decide what is and isn't harmful to you for YOURSELF," which to ME is the bottom line, or damn well should be.

Amber said...

Or what about the situation -

M: I'd really like to try X and Y with you. Would you like to?

W: Yes, sounds like fun.

(Or even – W: Sure, it will be fun. You've never done X and Y before? Z is also fun, by the way.)


Yep, that's happened a lot in my experience - both with me asking to try somethign and my partner asking. And by golly, we were each up for it! But um I guess that makes me a victim of patriarchy either way... right? Surely i wouldn't ask for these things if I did't think I was *supposed* to want them..?

Sorry, I just woke up... just rambling here...

UneFemmePlusCourageuse said...

Male feminists.... actually, I think I'd consider most of the guys I hang out with on a regular basis to be 'male feminists', based on the fact that they let me have an equal opinion to theirs. In that regard, then, Bobbo here is in no way a feminist.

UneFemmePlusCourageuse said...

seriously, w-w: how d'you know he doesn't go home and jerk off to this his very own self? sounds like he's got enough material to last him a lifetime. maybe the righteousness adds a special little frisson, you know?

I've decided I officially love the word 'frisson'. It's going right up there with narcissistic, pestilential, and twee.

belledame222 said...

>what feminism claims they want and don't want.

please to not be monolithing the feminism. ta.

Amber said...

My friend Joseph wrote about all of this from a gay male perspective. I don't suppose jensen and his fellows would have any answers for the questions Joseph poses... I mean, what to make of a gay man??

belledame222 said...

Duh, they don't exist. or, well, they're MEN, aren't they, except when they're being feminized, in which case they should really empathize with Class Woman, uh, um, well, I'M NOT HOMOPHOBIC, so, -crickets crickets-

Anthony Kennerson said...

That brings me to one of the most delicious ironies of Bob Jensen's ranting about male heterosexuality: he is, in fact, an outed gay man.

Here is an exerpt from an interview he did for a gay ezine called OutSmart.com:

...First, a note about the rather complicated position from which I speak. I am a gay guy who has had a girlfriend. Or, maybe it’s more accurate to say that I’m a straight man who sometimes has been sexual with men, at one point closeted and later openly. Or maybe I’m bisexual. Or maybe I’m making it up as I go along. Because I have crossed lines often, maybe I have shaky standing to speak about gay male sexuality. Or because I cross lines, maybe my vantage point provides a valuable view. Readers can make their own decisions about how, or whether, to listen to me...

...Because the object of gay male desire is the male body, not the female, it is tempting to dismiss this feminist critique as having no relevance for gay men. Yet in many ways, gay and straight men are not all that different in the way they are trained in our culture to understand and practice sex: sex as the acquisition of physical pleasure from another, sex as the exercise of power over another, sex disconnected from intimacy and affection toward another. That doesn’t mean every man, gay or straight, is locked into those values, but simply that typically we are raised with them. Those values are one part of what we can call "patriarchy"; it’s the water in which we swim...


Of course, even being a self-hating gay man doesn't stop him from imposing his repressive views about male sexuality on other men; for him, gay men who engage in "patriarchial" sex are simply conditioned by evil male "patriachy", and need the restrictive boundaries of his brand of radicalfeminism as much as hetero men do.

With "male feminists" like him, who needs the Promise Keepers or the "ex-gay" ministers???


Anthony

belledame222 said...

well now, that does put the wanting to tell the college boy to strip and spread 'em (as a gesture of "empathy," don'tcha know) in a somewhat different light, doesn't it...

look, was he abused himself? because I'm getting that vibe for some reason. in any case, it makes me think, once again, men -really- need their own movement to deal with that, the blurry lines between straight and gay, "straight" homoeroticism along with homosociality, and of course sexual abuse of men; because this approach, at least, is simply not working out.

belledame222 said...

you know, while we're on the subject, i also kind of have to wonder about putatively straight (?) anti-porn women who rant on and on about selfish women who only care about their "moist pussies," "warm wet fuckholes," and so on and so on.

just notin'.

Anonymous said...

All I know is that if I were a woman, I would pass on DP and go directly to TP (that's triple not toilet). I don't know if it would be my thing or not but I owned three holes, I would try filling them all at once at least once to see. Then again I'm just aguy what do I know.
H

Amber said...

Anon,
Been there, done that, got the post-coital bliss. Good times.