Yep. Here it goes. The Renegade is about to bitch about porn. As in, an anti-porn, or at least anti “this particular franchise” way. Really. Go ahead. Look up. The sky is not falling. Hey, I never claimed the porn industry was all beauty and butterflies, did I? Nope. And sometimes, it is just plain bullshit.
And Suicide Girls is what I am smellin’.
Yeah, lots of people have ripped on SG before. Lots of people have also defended it as a bastion of artistic, pro-woman alt girl riot reaction to the “traditional, misogynistic porn” out there. Hey, SG touts itself as a woman friendly, woman made, feminist experiment in self-expression, doesn’t it? And we should just believe that, right?
Right.
SG may have started out, once upon at time, as Missy Suicide’s own little funky, punk, woman friendly art shoot foray into porn done ala pin up Bettie Page style, but its no more alternative than BangBus at this point, and while the content is cleaner, it is no more subversive or empowering and no more woman-friendly or woman run. They may advertise as “a website where empowered, sex-positive women post their own nude photos and run their own accompanying journals” but, if you dig a little deeper, you get to the meat, as they say.
SG is run by Sean Suhl who is titled and known as the president and co-founder of the SG Empire. His handle is “spooky”, appropriately gothy I suppose. Mr. Suhl, a supporter of the war and a fellow accused of making several anti-Arab statements in recent times, has also been accused of calling the actual Suicide Girls, you know, the models, his bread and butter, “stupid whores”, cheating them out of money, and breach of contract. Missy, it seems, sold out her artistic vision and woman friendly ideals in the world of porn for something even more precious: money. Yet she still seems to have the empires back.
SG Prides itself on featuring alternative, goth, punk, rock-a-billy hipster women who do not conform to mainstream ideals of beauty, much less porn ideals of beauty. Hummm. Gaze on with me for a moment:
This Is Missy Suicide, Creative Visionary and Face of the Alt Porn Empire that is Suicide Girls:
This Is Belladonna, Owner of Deadly Nightshade Productions, Porn Star, Producer, Writer, and Director of some of the roughest, most degrading, and best selling Gonzo Pornography out there:
This is a Random Suicide Girl:
This is Melissa Lauren, Porn Star, Owner and Operator of the “Hellfire Sex” website:
Am I seeing a whole lot of difference there? Are you? Except that the one SG woman looks, well, very young? The SG line of appealing to the unconventional standards found in life and in porn (overall, as a genre) is a complete myth. By in large, the SG models are 18-24 years of age (in ‘other porn’ the age range is far more wide spread), the majority of them are white, thin, and attractive. The main difference between mainstream porn women and the alt girls is the occasional bit of colorful hair dye and extreme body piercings vs. breast implants (tattoos seem to be universal). The SG alt girls have the same basic bodies as the average porn star…they are just often younger and painted differently.
Now, let’s talk about how empowering SG is for its models. They are paid 300$-500$ on average for a photo shoot. They do not own the images taken of them. They are required to keep blogs on the SG site; the content of those blogs is regulated. They are (if selected to do so) required to do live events and road shows, where their on and off stage antics (almost fully nude burlesque-style shows, bi-titillating shower antics, so on so forth) are recorded and sold in DVD format. They get to foot the bill for a good deal of this travel. They pose nude and in girl on girl / BSDM scenarios. They are often told what to wear, what to say, how to look. SG is popular here in my neck of the woods; a lot of girls try for the suicide girl thang. The lines thrown at wanna be SG’s are not so different than those thrown at other similar models (often by male recruiters and photographers) “you’re too heavy”, “Not attractive enough”, etc, even if these women are alternative as hell. If a Suicide Girl leaves the family, as it were, they keep her images, which they can then use without her permission or sell off to other sites and content providers, even those dealing in hardcore porn. In fact, they own them, the rights to their professional names, likenesses, the works… and apparently, via their contracts, are not allowed to model for any "sites of a similar nature" for two years after leaving SG.
Well, you can read what a joy it is to be an ex-SG right here!
So you see, while it all seems to be wrapped up in pretty pink girl power, pro-woman pin up girl porn, SG is anything but, and a lot of the women, young women, going into it think it is nothing but a bit of rebellious fun…and selling a whole lot of SG merchandise...which they don't profit from either....
At least when I go to a shoot I know I am going to get fucked…
So, no, I don’t like Suicide Girls…I prefer my bullshit straight up and on the level, thanks.
113 comments:
I'm sorry, but what do you see in this sex industry? What is so great about getting naked and getting fucked for money? Talk about desperate and pathetic. People like you make me sick, you're not humans you're trash, scum at that. You don't even deserve to live, every single one of you porn stars should die horrible deaths. Porn is shit, anyone who supports it is shit
must I go on? You're pathetic and ugly inside and out. I hope you fucking smile as you read this and I hope one day you get so depressed you end your life. You should do it now, why hold back? You're not going anywhere in life, you serve no purpose my dear.
Just end your fucking life, you fucking piece of shit.
God has spoken, bitch
re: the above comment...
Too Fucking Funny NOT to post. Had to do it. Made me laugh. Silly human, Judgement is for the Devine!
Looks like God has some serious anger issues. Fortunately, as we know, He suffers no baleful sexual attraction to mere human women, so His Omnipotent Wrath couldn't possibly be mixed up with some kind of squalid psychosexual disorder.
RE, I know you're all, "Go Capitalism!", but this SG scam sounds like a good case for direct appropriation of the means of production, or at least some Teamsterish working class militancy.
KH: Well see, a few of the fed up SG's tried to stage a revolt, best as I can tell, and Missy apparently let them swing and there were plenty of "alt girls" more than willing to take their places. Such is the nature of the business...but ask me who I would rather work for, SG or Belladonna, and the answer, hands down, for reasons uncounted, would be Belladonna.
drive by psycho analysis of god;
Sad, lonely man who dated a slut and got burned, or never dated at all, or lost a man friend she adored to Teh Evil Porn Sluts. Needs to lash out at Ren, Crown Princess of Gonz, in order to make themselves feel better, has rage issues that rival Ren's own, but a less constructive way of taking them out. Resorts to "pathetic and ugly" statements, indicating jealousy or unhappiness with their own level of attractiveness. Assumes Ren must already be or will end up depressed, suggesting serious levels of misery in their own life (which is of course, due to porn and sluts...) Adovcates suicide for a solution...
I suggest we lock god and Ren in for a steel cage match. I'll throw down $50 on Ren...
I'm guessing god's a Primative Baptist who's wife wears the pants underneath her long skirt. Or maybe a Hasid. same dif.
Dear god,
If I recall, you're (if you're really You) the one who invented mercy, sex, life, love, free will, and who decided all of the things you created were precious enough to give your own life for. So, who is it that should end their life again?
Before you start equating yourself with the Divine Master, get your facts straight about His character.
asshole.
p.s. I have it on good evidence that He doesn't really like it when people start calling believing themselves to be Him, and He's not the sort one would want to go pissing off for frivolous reasons.
*Pisses self laughing at "God's" comment. I can see why you left it there... it really is too fucking funny not to post!
I think god's a lady.
AP: Yep, gods a lady...I may be a whore but stupid I am not...
Regular Reader types...I am about to post a reply to god and her little friend where in I hit below the belt as it were, but some people really do deserve it...
I have a question - is this gonzo porn degrading to only women?
From what I've seen thus far, yes, but then I make it a point to avoid it as much as possible and therefore don't know the scope of it.
Vera: Overall, yes. There are exceptions of course, but most of the degradation (of the obvious variety) is aimed at the women. Not all gonzo, however, is marketed to be or as degrading porn...technically, gonzo is anything without much in the way of a plot...
(from Wiki: Gonzo pornography is both a category, and filming style of adult video. It is characterized by a filming style which attempts to place the viewer directly into the scene. The name is a reference to gonzo journalism, in which the reporter is part of the event taking place. By analogy, gonzo pornography puts the camera right into the action -- often with one or more of the participants both filming and performing sex acts -- without the usual separation characteristic of conventional porn and cinema.[1] Deeply influenced by amateur pornography, basic gonzo porn tends to use far fewer full-body/wide shots, and more close-ups (see Reality porn). The loose and direct camera work often includes "tight" shots of the lower genitalia, unlike much of traditional porn.
Gonzo videos tend to focus far less on the plots, extended dialog, elaborate costumes/sets, and artistic camerawork commonly found in conventional porn. However, due to the explosive growth in its popularity since the mid-1990's, gonzo has attained mainstream popularity; several individually distinct styles of no-frills, filmed pornography can be labeled gonzo porn. Today, several companies produce gonzo that has excellent lighting and sound quality, (temporary) lingerie costuming, and is shot in various rooms of luxury homes. One trait that all gonzo films share, though, is a much greater emphasis on intense (almost hyperactive) sexual performance. Regardless of camera techniques or the degree of director involvement in the scenes, a gonzo film has "more sex", per se, than a traditional (e.g., Vivid or [Adam&Eve brand]) adult video. Gonzo scenes tend to run longer; it is common for a single boy-girl scene to run anywhere from fifteen to thirty minutes.)
Regarding the True Identity of "god"...A word to the wise:
Caroline_C and Lynn the Lycan of the LJ community Actually Against, this is directed towards you two charmers…
Caroline: If you link to my blog enough times to speak of all the shame and whooorrre I inflict upon the world, it is easy enough to find out where you are on the net, my dear. It is then easy enough to read your profile and see to what communities you belong. It is then also generally easy enough to find out, supposedly locked or not, what has been said on those communities. Every word you write is recorded in places above and beyond those entries…
That being said, cupcake, hey I am sorry your beloved boyfriend decided to betray your trust and cross your anti-porn line by looking not only at porn, but looking at porn with me in it. Yet, I hardly forced him to do so. I didn’t fuck him, nor point a gun at his head and make him watch others do so, so get the fuck over it and blame him for his screw up with you, and not me.
Lynn now, my dear…or god, or whatever other alias you choose to adopt…let’s see…
“I pretty much spammed her blog tonight lol
and its obvious shes offended or else she would of ignored it and of course her stupid friends come to defend her, pathetic
oh well it was fun
by the way shes ugly and looks like a man in the face
i found myself sitting there comtemplating it”
Yes, you made your opinions on my looks via the comments submitted as “ha ha fuck you”, “you’re ugly” and “fuck you” quite clear, but I must ask, how does one who writes “You aren’t no fucking model” figure they have the right to call anyone else stupid? Then again, it is hard to take the words of a whiner who decorates her own journal in whimsical neo-porn little girl anime images all that seriously, especially considering the obvious angst filling your world. Now, tough girl, you’ve expressed a desire to both strangle and stab me, I’d say you have some issues, but seeing as you cannot even comment here as an adult, backing up your self righteous venom and disdain for the whores of the world with your own internet handle, I fail to be impressed by your bravery or homicidal tendencies. And if you think you offended me or made me cry, you are sorely mistaken, princess. You are a rank amateur when it comes to offensive or hurtful, and people like you and Caroline amuse the hell out of me.
Really you two, what are you, in 5th grade? Did the big bad porn sluts of the world rain so badly on your sad little lives that you cry, alone, on you pillows at night in your flannel jammies? Have the bad, mean boys fucked you over in life in favor of porn women and other assorted promiscuous girls? Did they ask you to take it up the ass or something? How is it that you are so very, very threatened by a woman you’ve never met, the way she looks, and what she does for a living? Do the boys not pay you any mind because they are too busy looking at ugly whores like me? Oops, in Caroline C’s case I guess that is fact! I guess jerking off to me, fake tits and all, was preferable to even looking at you, cupcake, and lying about it beat listening to you cry over it too. Poor, poor, girl…here’s a tissue. As for you Lynn, you know they say that people who attack the appearances of others usually do so because they find themselves unattractive, and so do others. Are you an ugly girl, Lynn? Is that why you endlessly attack any and every women who shows a little skin, because you are horribly ashamed of your looks mocked for them? Is that why you stoop to grade school tactics, threats of violence, insults and spamming? Because you are just so angry and hurt and wounded inside, so threatened by the looks and mere existence of women you have never even met that it is the only way you can articulate your pain and self loathing in order to cope with what worthless piece of shit you obviously think you are? You are a fanatic, Lynn, a zealot, and such people often have so many issues with themselves the only way they can deal is to grab something to hate and attack it mindlessly, because it is the only sense of self identity and purpose they have. Of course it’s the whores fault, the sluts fault, the men’s fault, the media’s fault, the fault of everyone else in the world but little innocent beset upon Lynn, righteous god-fearing heroine lost alone in a world of perversion, I am sure. Issues? Damn woman, you’ve got more than National Geographic.
Now, ladies, come back when you grow up and can be brave enough not to spam anonymously, or better yet, don’t come back at all. After all, this is hardly a good place for children. Now, off you go, time for milk and cookies before nap time…and Lynn, quit mutilating your Barbie Dolls before they haul you in for serious observation and therapy.
Heh, you two are a great example of why it is far preferable to get fucked for a living than be fucked up for life.
Uh, newsflash, a woman's peak fertility is at 23 and it's been scientifically proven that men of all cultures sexually prefer girls between puberty and first child. Which would be around 18 (legally)-24ish in this country.
So, if a porn company wants to be MOST profitable in the FREE MARKET - it makes sense that they would recruit primarily within that age range.
I mean just look at Brtney when she was at her peak at 18 and the complete bargain bin wastoid she is now at 25. It's like the young Elvis vs Vegas Elvis - except it only took her 7 years...
Don't hate just cuz you're out of it.
And byrd MISSES the point completely YET again! Damn you need an award for that tendancy...
The age of the models is not the main problem here, Byrd. The main problem is that the models are not paid well, lied to, treated badly, and the way SG markets and advertises itself is not at all what it really is. If SG marketed itself as "nudie picks of goth chicks" and did not screw the models over I would have ZERO problem with them, but that's not what they do.
Oh good the "all boys like only young girls" bullshit again. Nothing like completely missing the point while using yet another well known lie.
Whoo! He's a master at being useless.
Vera:
Yeah, he rather does have missing the point down to an art form, doesn't he?
^^^ Well, just goes to show how badly these girls want validation as being sexually-attractive.
Most of them aren't in it for the money, but the validation.
A good number of which felt gawky or ugly ducklings when they were younger and now want redemption.
If there's some misleading or false advertising going on here, I agree that's unnecessary. Frankly, they might as well lay it all out up front because these girls are so eager to jump through hoops for the "I'm sexy" status it awards them that they wouldn't care.
Just like all the girls who flock to the GGW trailer bus everytime it rolls into town to eagerly flash their udders. Or your local wet T-shirt contests.
Or Pamela Anderson's, Paris Hilton's & now Kim Kardashian's "leaked" home sex tapes as Hollywood career moves.
Let's face it, the more mainstream porn becomes...the more mainstream women will be "forced" to do porn in order to compete and reach alpha female status and all its trappings in society.
In 10 years, a mainstream actress will be considered a boring prude if she has not dabbled in porn and released a sex tape or 2. Music videos will all be x-rated. And the line between straight cinema and porn will become very blurred.
"Oh good the "all boys like only young girls" bullshit again. Nothing like completely missing the point while using yet another well known lie."
Yup, you're completely correct. Not only did he miss the point by a long shot, there is no scientific proof of what he claims. None of any sort. It's actually standardly accepted that man peak at 18 while women sexually peak in their thirties. It seems that the real reason that men chase after women around 18 or younger is simply because they are naive and much easier to manipulate. The biological argument doesn't hold a bit of water.
"Let's face it, the more mainstream porn becomes...the more mainstream women will be "forced" to do porn in order to compete and reach alpha female status and all its trappings in society.
In 10 years, a mainstream actress will be considered a boring prude if she has not dabbled in porn and released a sex tape or 2. Music videos will all be x-rated. And the line between straight cinema and porn will become very blurred."
And is all of this going to happen before or after the spaceship lands?
Byrd:
Sure, some girls do it for the attention or validation, some do it for the money, some, especially the original SG's I suspect, and those who have gone on to do other alt porn types of things do it as matter of expression or because they love it. It's inaccurate to assume that all women do any sort of nude modeling or porn or whatever for all the same reasons... they all have their own reasons, and often times they are quite diverse.
Udders? Christ you really are an asshole, aren't ya? And blah blah blah with the "alpha female=sexual attractiveness to men" bs again.
And 10 years, eh? I seriously doubt that in 10 years the world we be watching X rated network tv, or MTV, in their living rooms every night or that mainstream actresses will have to do porn films to be considered anything other than prudes... If Janet Jacksons Nipple is still such a big deal, I don't see a bisexual 69 scene making the halftime show in a mere decade.
Faith:
" It seems that the real reason that men chase after women around 18 or younger is simply because they are naive and much easier to manipulate."
The same is true in the sex industry as well...young women are more naive and can be more easily won over with prospect of money and being a centerfold or feature girl or whatever than opposed to an older women (oh, say, 25 even) who will ignore the hype and actually READ her contract and ask questions and figure out the true nature of what it is she is getting into... Hell, on most "Barely Legal" porn sites it is hard to tell the 18 year olds from the 28 year olds, age can be very ambigious that way...except often the 28 year olds are the ones who are around for more than one shoot and can be recognized from previous work in the business that if they were really 18? Well, it would have been shot when they were way under the legal age...
Let's face it, the more mainstream porn becomes...the more mainstream women will be "forced" to do porn in order to compete and reach alpha female status and all its trappings in society.
Byrdeye - do you personally value "pornified" women over "mainstream" women?
do you really think that society rewards "pornified" women with higher status?
what constitutes "higher" status? what rewards particularly do you think society gives "pornified" women?
Oh, EXCELLENT question AP!!! You Rock!
It's actually standardly accepted that man peak at 18 while women sexually peak in their thirties. It seems that the real reason that men chase after women around 18 or younger is simply because they are naive and much easier to manipulate. The biological argument doesn't hold a bit of water.
You are confusing several things here:
1) Age women are most comfortable with their sexuality.
2) Age women can get off the easiest.
3) Age women are horniest (biologically (highest testosterone levels).
4) Age women are most sexually-attracive to men.
The "sex peak in 30s" factoid was more a measure of 1 based upon a subjective, unscientific survey.
3 and 4 would correlate more with peak fertility at 23 based upon tesosterone levels which drop in both men and women after adolescence.
2 for women might be in between in her 20s when her experience has gone up and hormones haven't dropped that much yet.
In any case, only 4 really matters to men for porn here. What if women magically got horniest at 85? Who gives a fuck? I'd still want to see some naked 20-yo instead!
"It seems that the real reason that men chase after women around 18 or younger is simply because they are naive and much easier to manipulate."
Or maybe it's just the fact that their skin is so much softer and smoother and bodies tauter? Which generally is young girls 18-23.
And as far as just watching girls in porn here...it's not like it matters how "manipulable" or pleasant they are.
"Byrdeye - do you personally value "pornified" women over "mainstream" women?"
I'm guessing he personally prefers "pornified" women over "mainstream" women as much as he'd like us to believe otherwise. The "pornified" women are easier targets for his abuse.
byrd;
wrt 18 year olds...you find braces, acne and baby fat sexy then? a lot of 18 year olds possess all three of those things...much like younger children....
Byrdeye - do you personally value "pornified" women over "mainstream" women?
do you really think that society rewards "pornified" women with higher status?
what constitutes "higher" status? what rewards particularly do you think society gives "pornified" women?
No.
Yes. Sharon Stone shot to the top after she flashed her beaver on film. Paris Hilton's tape gave her a career boost too. Madonna did some soft-porn too - also to boost her career. These women are all highest-paid, leading ladies in the industry and could pretty much date any man they want. Men wanted them, women wanted to be them. If that's not status, then I don't know what is.
Of course, many men would also be afraid to actually bang or commit to some of these same women due to fear of STDs & infidelity. So, there is of course also a trade-off to that degree of sexual power...like anything in life. But a choice these women all willingly made.
"Or maybe it's just the fact that their skin is so much softer and smoother and bodies tauter? Which generally is young girls 18-23."
Please, you're grasping and you know you're grasping. I've seen 40-50 year old women who can compete with teenage girls any day of the week in this aspect.
"And as far as just watching girls in porn here...it's not like it matters how "manipulable" or pleasant they are."
Oh, it does matter to the men watching very much. That's largely the whole point unless they are looking for femdom. Porn serves as a fantasy world for men where women are easy to manipulate and willing to please men. Read Ren's comment, too.
"In any case, only 4 really matters to men for porn here. What if women magically got horniest at 85? Who gives a fuck? I'd still want to see some naked 20-yo instead!"
Yet you would also state that this is all that matters in standard relationships. Why might that be? Because you don't give a rat's ass about anything but yourself.
Actually, Byrd, Madonna, yeah, shes done well for herself. Sex has been a big part of that. Sharon Stone? Yep, the flash helped, but you know, a lot of women went to see Basic Instinct as well, and not to see her crotch. Paris? Pfft. No one takes her seriously at all...
The woman most often regarded with the most power and influence in the media as a whole? Oprah. And she's never flashed a thing.
(off topic, but my favorite of the 'alt girls' http://morrigan-hel.com/, NSFW -nudity, fake gore)
so you yourself don't value "pornified" women over mainstream women?
do you think you're a typical man in that regard?
sorry - so you yourself don't value "pornified" women over mainstream women?
do you think you're a typical man in that regard?
@ Byrdeye - I should have made that clear.
but it begs the question - if Byrdeye is a typical man, and values what typical men value, then can we not say that typical men value mainstream women and not "pornified" women?
if that is the case, who is doing all this elevating of the pornified woman, since typical men prefer mainstream women?
alternately, if Byrdeye is an anomaly among men in his preference for mainstream women, is he really qualified to opine on the desires of Class Man?
:::Runs in on his lunch break:::
AP: I like both kinds. I mean, obviously I like 'pornified' women (points at blog logo- damn!), but I also like mainstream women. The gf prior to Ren, very mainstream. Kind of a hippy, actually, in a mainstream sort of way...but rarely wore make up, no implants, hated heels, out-doorsy type. Also very pretty, but, well, our politics and future wants clashed big time. I can tell you this, though, the sorta hippy mainstream ex did not have to put up with half the bullshit Ren The Pornified does...
And if I were the praying type, I'd be begging God (the real one, not the one on this thread) that Byrd, in more ways than one, was no indication of men as a whole.
"And if I were the praying type, I'd be begging God (the real one, not the one on this thread) that Byrd, in more ways than one, was no indication of men as a whole. "
I second this. I actually hope he's not indicative of most mra's either.
Please, you're grasping and you know you're grasping. I've seen 40-50 year old women who can compete with teenage girls any day of the week in this aspect.
ABSOLUTE BS. 'Nuff said.
Or would you care to post a picture of these mythical women? Along with Bigfoot & unicorns?
And, no, airbrushed pics of comsetically-altered hags buried under a cakelayer of make-up don't count.
so you yourself don't value "pornified" women over mainstream women?
I "value" attractive women with integrity.
Pornbots have a relatively high social value not because they are in porn, but because porn selects for highly-attractive women. The porn aspect might raise their value to some looking for easy lays, but decrease it for those looking for clean, committed relationships.
If you offered me twin sisters - both hot but one in porn and the other not - I would definitely take the one not in porn.
OTOH, I am not sexually interested in unattractive women - mainstrem or porn.
So, the common dilineator here is not so much porn/mainstream as attractive/unattractive. Which explains why Mr E's ex was a radically-different hippy chick - but I'm betting similarly attractive.
y'know, Byrd, for all his propensities for grand generalizations, is being remarkably civil. For him. Have a cookie, Byrd. The rest of y'all, too.
DOn't know much about porn, but in the pictures (I realize it's a candid and the others are posed), Belladonna looks sexier to me than the skinny girls with pouty lips. But then whadooIknow.
Another thing, once, on a whim, I visited Belladonna's site. While I didn't find the content particularly appealing, she looked like she was having a grand time, making faces and stuff. Oh well.
(If I'm going to disapprove of something, I need to know what I'm disapproving of, right?)
Great post Ren! The comments OTOH...LOL.
Also-nice job tracking down god!
my goodness. god, no less.
anyway, great post, linked the "tales from the dark site" lj.
and, gotta agree with kh, here.
while the "young=easier to manipulate" thing is true, there is also an overall value placed on youth here that is not, in fact, quite so universal as you'd think.
personally i think it has partly to do with our extremely fucked up attitude about death.
and: so yeah, it's about control, but in more ways than one. aging and dying is what some call a "narcissistic injury;" it's something outside our control.
of course, that combines with yer basic sexism, sure;
but, if you notice, Hugh Hefner notwithstanding, you still don't tend to see seriously aging men in your basic mainstream porn. older, yes, but not y'know -old.-
and if you look at gay male porn, well, there are certain standards there as well.
RE what the girls who sign contracts with non-compete clauses don’t know is that most of them don’t apply. American industry has tried to tie the hands of key employees (initially) and have (tried to) include all employees. This ahs been seen as a way to hamper the competition. Non-compete clauses do apply to key individuals who have specific knowledge and access to critical research and intellectual property. The tech industry, in particular, then tried to broaden this to technicians and other employees. The logic was we trained and invested in them they should not be allowed to use these skills for other companies. The courts have struck down this attempt at restraint of trade. If you are the average working stiff an employer cannot inhibit you from engaging in making a living no matter what the contract says. Management contracts are another deal. That is why Prince became known as a logo for a few years, his record company owned the rights to his public persona for an interval of time so he gave it up until the contract expired and got a shit load of publicity in the process; then re-branded himself as Prince again. Some how I don’t think any of the suicide girls are in this category, though the contracts should be reviewed by lawyers first.
There is biological imperative and social imperative both are in play. These all or nothing debates are a tad simplistic. I like women who do porn, women who don’t do porn, I like women with brains, I like those with out (less engaging but…) I like women who are 6, 16, 26, 36, 46, 56, 66, 76… I like pretty women, I like ugly women, I like fat women I like thin women…you know I think I just like women, go figure. Do I want to have sex with all of them…not all. Do I wish my wife were a Victoria’s Secret hard body, sure. Am I willing to put up with the angst of her trying to be that, when it is clearly hard work to do, for all but the genetically blessed…not so much. Most men are happy that their women just plain show up and are interested.
Oh this thread has me laughing my head off here at work! People are looking at me like I'm a bit crazy. Ren, your take-down of the 5th Grade Porn Attack Crew was brilliant. I think Faith's quote takes the cake though...
And is all of this going to happen before or after the spaceship lands?
Loving it!
Ren, I'm pleased to read your thoughts about Suicide Girls at this moment, as there's been a lot of discussion of the site over at Bitch PhD, and porn generally as an effect of that, because she's begun blogging for pay on the SG site and a lot of her readers have misgivings. It's been a pretty interesting conversation - a lot of the same objections raised that regular readers here could recite in our sleep - have you been following that at all?
personally i think it has partly to do with our extremely fucked up attitude about death.
Interesting... I would like to hear more about this.
Byrd's trying to distract us with assertions about women's sexual peak from the elephant in the room: his own. I'm sure it's long gone.
Byrd is clearly feeling the pain of a severe decrease in functionality and the envy that comes with knowing that he wouldn't be a candidate for Britney (assuming that to somehow be a carrot) whether she were 18 or 25, nor would he have a shot at Annette Bening or Geena Davis, or their non-celeb equivalents.
I don't even like the NAME Suicide Girls. I was depressed and often had thoughts of killing myself throughout high school, and the thought that they're using a very serious word to exploit young women is just disgusting and wrong.
Just browsing through, but this comment kinda yanked my chain a bit:
[From ByrdBrain]
"And as far as just watching girls in porn here...it's not like it matters how "manipulable" or pleasant they are."
[Faith]
Oh, it does matter to the men watching very much. That's largely the whole point unless they are looking for femdom. Porn serves as a fantasy world for men where women are easy to manipulate and willing to please men. Read Ren's comment, too.
Well....I certainly don't consider myself as much more than "the average man", Faith, and I don't neccessarily watch porn merely to find women who are "easily manipulated" and who can merely "please men". Far from it...the women in porn who turn me on the most are the exact opposite: they take and demand their pleasure without needing the permission or approval of men. That men benefit from their outward acceptance of pleasure is far less important than the fact that THE WOMEN set the terms and the moods and the ground rules....and they need not be prodommes either.
Besides, why should every sexual encounter other than explicit femdomme-based BDSM be so reduced to male power and female powerlessness??? Is there any form of sexual encounter where men and women can be seen as equals sharing and negotiating power for mutual pleasure?? Or, maybe, some women may simply like giving up power on occasion and allowing the man to take the lead sexually??
And.....so what if most porn is geared towards satisfying mostly male sexual fantasies about women?? As long as there is no coercion, as long as there remains mutual consent and mutual respect, and both sides get the full amount of pleasure from the encounter, I fail to see why it should be condemned. Would romance novels -- where idealized stereotypes of men are presented for the benefit of mostly women's fantasies -- be treated in the same way??
I'll get to ByrdBrain's latest attempt at nonsense soon.
Anthony
Petit:
I have been following the BitchPhD thing only very moderately, mostly via other blogs.
RT: I think Belladonna is great, she really is...kind of a goofball.
SE: Not even god can hide ;)
Belle: well, yes, there is a youth fetish all on its own, the real deal and the perception there of...after all, the more youthful you are, the further you are from death...
Byrd...well, here are a few women supposedly "past their prime" who I would put up, body and looks wise, against most 18-23 year olds...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mika_Tan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicky_Vette
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Malle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_Giovanni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Carrera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Romain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trish_Stratus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrie_Wilson
H: Yes, but many people, via the contract enforcement, do not want the hassle, drama and cost of trying to get OUT of it...
Heheh y'all realize now I am gonna have to do a post with a round of spot the under 25 body and the over 30 body, as well as "is she an alt girl, or is she mainstream porn?"
And I really hope Byrd decides to play :)
Ok...time to play Stomp the ByrdBrain once again:
[From BB]
Uh, newsflash, a woman's peak fertility is at 23 and it's been scientifically proven that men of all cultures sexually prefer girls between puberty and first child. Which would be around 18 (legally)-24ish in this country.
[/BB]
Now you know that we depend on collaboration of our stats, ByrdBrain, so show us the links so that we can actually prove your "facts" are really scientific and not just more of your brain farts.
Besides...you do know that peak fertility has not a DAMN thing to do with sexual desirability or a woman's sex drive, do you?? Were it so, then no woman would be able to desire sex after, say, 25..and considering all the women over 35 or 40 who openly testify about their sexual desires getting as strong if not stronger than they were at their teens or 20s. A woman's clit isn't all the way surgically attached to her womb, you know.
"RT: I think Belladonna is great, she really is...kind of a goofball."
That is definitely the impression I got- really, really playful. Only...you know.
"Well....I certainly don't consider myself as much more than "the average man", Faith, and I don't neccessarily watch porn merely to find women who are "easily manipulated" and who can merely "please men".'
Then I'd wager that you aren't the average man. I'd wager that you are a bit more evolved than the average man.
"And.....so what if most porn is geared towards satisfying mostly male sexual fantasies about women?? As long as there is no coercion, as long as there remains mutual consent and mutual respect, and both sides get the full amount of pleasure from the encounter, I fail to see why it should be condemned."
The problem is that most heterosexual porn - femdom not withstanding - that is geared towards pleasing the average misogynistic male, is well, misogynistic. As a female, I enjoy watching quality porn, but quality porn that doesn't make me want to punch the screen (keep in mind that I am an experienced submissive) is hard to find. Particularly on the internet. You might not see any problem with surfing porn sites where all the women are portrayed as sluts, whores and cum-guzzling dumpster hoes who exist for the sole purpose of pleasing and being exploited by men, but I do have a major problem with this representation and do believe that said representation is damaging to women as a whole. (maybe you do have a problem with that type of porn, i don't know).
I actually had little problem with porn pre-internet and watched a fair deal of porn. After being traumatized repeatedly by shit I've seen on the net, I've afraid to even try anymore.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Carrera"
I've always liked Asia Carrera...not really sure why. she's just always been one of the few porn stars that stood out to me.
"Or, maybe, some women may simply like giving up power on occasion and allowing the man to take the lead sexually??"
Um, yea. Like me.
petitpoussin said...
"there's been a lot of discussion of the site over at Bitch PhD, and porn generally as an effect of that, because she's begun blogging for pay on the SG site and a lot of her readers have misgivings."
I find that discussion very interesting too. I'm all for getting paid, but I have to admit there's something that makes me feel a little meh about someone being a full-time professional in a chosen field, then giving it up for a husband's job, putting her own profession on indefinite hiatus, and then writing for what seems to be an exploitative (and hypocritically so) site "for money."
I'm not saying there's one better side in the "mommy wars," but this particular segue seems hypocritical.
I admit, I don't have all the facts, so the above is pretty judgmental...
Sorry...got distracted by family business. To continue:
[From ByrdBrain]
I "value" attractive women with integrity.
Pornbots have a relatively high social value not because they are in porn, but because porn selects for highly-attractive women. The porn aspect might raise their value to some looking for easy lays, but decrease it for those looking for clean, committed relationships." [/BB]
Oh, I get it now....so "pornbots" (for someone who hates "radicalfeminists" so much, BB, you sure have a way of mocking them when it comes to dissing sexually assertive women) are so blinded by their libido that they are incapable of "clean committed relationships"??? And that is so different from, say, horny single men who "play the field"?? But I guess that women who don't meet your standards of sexual propriety are solely to blame for all the troubled social relationships between men and women..not to mention world hunger, the failure to win in Iraq, and the rise of "illegal aliens"???
The only "high social value" that sexually active women -- whether they do porn and/or sex work or not -- have in this mostly sex-negative culture is that they get stigmatized, scapegoated, and denied the same protections that more conservative women take for granted. It may be "high social value" for the politicians, faux psychologists, armchair psychoanalysts, and fundie spokesmen who make their profits and living off the bashing of these women, but trust me on this one, ByrdBrain, it's hardly a benefit to these women. If they are there, it is out of sheer survival skills and sheer horniness...and the iron will to take so much shit for their right to determine their own pleasure.
Oh, and one more thing, ByrdBrain: you do know that your definition of "porn" does include more than just Silicone Valley gonzo sites, Playboy/Penthouse/Hustler and Meatholes/Extreme; it also includes the prolific home-based web sites totally run and maintained by the models and women themselves, as well as women who simply aim a camcorder at themselves and post the results on MySpace or YouTube (or an adult equivalent thereof). And not all of those images are neccessarily of hourglass-shaped Playmates or anorexic, rail-thin runway models, either....there is a large variety of body shapes and sizes to please everyone. Try breaking away from the tabloids and the Stuff/Maxim models and venture in the real world for a spell; you'd be amazed.
Anthony
Oh, and to The Faux Artist Attempting to Mock God:
Whatever gets your rocks off, dear.
Still, I'd suspect that if God(dess) wanted to express her genuine disapproval of Ren and her lifestyle, (S)He would probably do something a bit more dramatic than posting a nasty message on her blog. I mean, (S)He does have the full arsenal of weapons (lightning bolts, floods, Cat 5 hurricanes, tornadoes, nuclear weapons, et. al) that could be used to express His (Her) wrath.
But, Ren is still with us, and pretty much unscathed (though sometimes bruised and battered a bit)...so I guess that the real God(dess) must not have too much of a problem with her.
The writer must have missed the part in the 1st Commandment about "bringing false Gods before me"...
Other than that..what Ren said.
Anthony
Thanks Toots! Although isn't the ultimate civility - honesty? There's something to be said for upfront people who stab you in the chest, not the back...
ByrdBrain, so show us the links so that we can actually prove your "facts" are really scientific and not just more of your brain farts.
It's common knowledge, but you can find it in The Red Queen by Matt Ridley, amongst other sources...
personally i think it has partly to do with our extremely fucked up attitude about death.
Actually, for women, it has to do with their short fertility window and males' evolutionary desire to reproduce. You know, the desire that got us all here today? After which they are reproductively useless to men.
Ren - I rest my case:
Mika - her spackle doesn't even match her skintone, it's so thick and obvious
Vicky - can't see her face good but I'm not impressed by her ridiculously large fake beanbags
Malle - make-up/cake-up galore
Aria - see above, although she looks like she may have been under the knife too?
Asia - been cut like Mike, and still about average..
Sandra - not bad, but she's still in her 20s
Trish - cake-up
Torrie - crow's feet *caw caw*
Now, all you have to do is surf Myspace and look at some 18-yo hotties. Their skin is simply so much smoother and they have no wrinkles. Nor need much make-up. Even when I've dated young hotties in their early 20s...when I saw their senior pics I realized they were even hotter then!
A few more notes (sorry for the blog whoring, y'all);
Anna Malle, sad to say, passed away last year in an auto accident; she was more of a swinger and a model than a porn starlet, and she was one of a kind.
Vicky Vette: Not only does she represent the older class of "slut" quite well, but she actually has only been in the business since 2003...at the bright young age of 38. Not too bad for someone "past her prime", ehhh??? Maturity does have its advantages...and its benefits.
(Oh...and I wouldn't dare to mention the name "Nina Hartley", wouldn't I?? 45 years old and STILL as popular as ever. But..she's past her prime, too, I guess....)
Finally to rebut Faith once again:
"The problem is that most heterosexual porn - femdom not withstanding - that is geared towards pleasing the average misogynistic male, is well, misogynistic. As a female, I enjoy watching quality porn, but quality porn that doesn't make me want to punch the screen (keep in mind that I am an experienced submissive) is hard to find. Particularly on the internet. You might not see any problem with surfing porn sites where all the women are portrayed as sluts, whores and cum-guzzling dumpster hoes who exist for the sole purpose of pleasing and being exploited by men, but I do have a major problem with this representation and do believe that said representation is damaging to women as a whole. (maybe you do have a problem with that type of porn, i don't know)."
I can feel you on that, and do respect your particular taste in porn....I'm not particularly a fan of the type of "wham, bam, spooge in her face, bust it up her ass" gonzo school of making porn myself. (If the model is particularly hot and seems like she is enjoying herself and actually looks like she's getting some pleasure from it, then it might turn me on a bit.) The point remains that there are plenty of men who are not misogynistic assholes (and not a few women) who can and do get off on watching that type of porn, just as there are men whose personal tastes tend toward the softer, more romantic, less brassy style of erotica/porn. Everyone has their own particular tastes; and while misogyny should be called out and opposed when it happens, it's still important not to confuse personal ascetic taste with real acts of misogyny. What turns me on may not turn you on, and vise versa; but that doesn't necessarily make me a misogynistic fool, nor you a "prude"..it only makes us different.
OK....I believe I've used up my allotment of pixels for today; I'll stop hoarding Ren's soapbox for now. :-)
Anthony
("More evolved than the average man"??? I'll take that as a high compliment, if that was the intent...lol)
are so blinded by their libido that they are incapable of "clean committed relationships"???
Whether it is truly a high libido or some other psychological issues, a promiscuous woman is likely...to stay promiscuous...which makes her a poor choice for a committed relationship.
And also increases her risk of STDs.
Why do you think a stigma arose around loose women in society? There were very pragmatic reasons for it. Especially back then before condoms and BC. It was REAL easy for women to get STDs...and pass them on to you. Or knocked up by a lover and have you cuckold his baby. These were no laughing matters - but lives at stake. Therefore, a man had to be VERY careful not to select a woman like that to trust in. And authorities laid down strict conventions to try to keep wanton sex from destroying their societies from the ground up.
And things are still similar today, although the risk is lowered via technology.
This is real life, AK, the facts are the facts. Grow up and come out from under your couch cushion fort already.
Byrd:
Are you utterly wrinkle free and smooth yourself? And LOTS of women wear make up, even teenagers! And you never did answer the questions about acne, baby fat and braces, either...
I do hope you play the body game, my dear...we'll see how good your eye is then...
Faith - men produce porn that gets their primary consumers - men - off. In the free market, our natural desires are allowed to express themselves. It's about the only avenue men have left these days.
But women have the same freedom to produce their own porn - although for women, that often comes more in the form of graphic romance novels. Which also fit men into formula roles (typically the bad boy "Fabiolus" alpha who must sweep her off her dainty feet and steal her away from a beta).
But, we don't bitch about your chick lit and the expectations it raises for us, so why bitch about our dick flix and any "expectations" it raises for you? Point is, it's not my business to tell women what should turn them on. I realize a lot of it is evolutionary biology. Why can't you?
Ren - I actually think braces are HOT.
Zits not - but most young girls I've seen are clear-faced.
Baby fat? Not exactly but it sure looks better than dimply adult fat.
And most people guess I'm radically younger than I am and some have remarked how smooth my skin is.
Anyhow, I could play that game IRL, but with plastic surgery, make-up, lighting, airbrushing, etc - the playing field can get very unlevelled on the computer.
Although I'm sure we can all see the clear difference with the SG girl and others on your post alone.
byrd: The oldest woman of the four is Missy Suicide herself. The other random SG and Melissa Lauren are a year apart in age. Opps.
No oops, I'm talking about the blonde, silly.
*pats head*
Goodness, ByrdBrain, as much as I want to resist, your illogic is just too much to ignore.
[BB]
Whether it is truly a high libido or some other psychological issues, a promiscuous woman is likely...to stay promiscuous...which makes her a poor choice for a committed relationship.
And also increases her risk of STDs. [/BB]
Hmmmm...so women who don't have the low sex drive you prefer (or who don't limit their sex drive to pumping out lots of babies) have "psychological issues"??? Funny, but I never thought that more conventional women with "normal" and "healthy" sex drives were all that different in having "psychological issues" of their own..but then again, I may be thinking with my dick again. Still better than talking out of my ass, though.
[BB] Why do you think a stigma arose around loose women in society? There were very pragmatic reasons for it. Especially back then before condoms and BC. It was REAL easy for women to get STDs...and pass them on to you. Or knocked up by a lover and have you cuckold his baby. These were no laughing matters - but lives at stake. Therefore, a man had to be VERY careful not to select a woman like that to trust in. And authorities laid down strict conventions to try to keep wanton sex from destroying their societies from the ground up. [/BB]
Oh, yeah..as if war, famine, non-sexual diseases, lack of protection from the elements, and economic and social exploitation wasn't wreaking enough of a toll on whole societies (remember the Middle Ages, BB??), only sexually active women are to blame and to be targeted to "rescue civilization", right??? Oh, and, of course, men who violated their vows of monogamy and knocked up women (whether "promiscuous" or not) simply couldn't be held to the same standard as you would punish and scapegoat women, couldn't they??? But let's all blame them sluts and whores and harlots (and those feminists who enable them today) for the fall of civilization....so much easier and more comfortable for some men than challenging real issues of inequality and power.
[BB] And things are still similar today, although the risk is lowered via technology.
This is real life, AK, the facts are the facts. Grow up and come out from under your couch cushion fort already. [/BB]
Yeah, sure...so similar that the rate of HIV transmission in societies that follow your favored "traditional values" is more than DOUBLE that of women here in the US. So similar that women are actually safer and healthier (even with the spread of condoms and "safe sex" messages) in more egalitarian and "sex positive" cultures than in your prefered cultures.
Oh, but as the Catholic Church hierarchy always says: "3.000 years of teaching can't be wrong." Even when it is proven wrong. (This just in: The earth is still round and rotates around the sun...contrary to some rumors.) Or even when the very people who attempt to enforce their biases on others can't even live their beliefs themselves. (Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggard, Bill O'Reilly, The pro-Nazi Ratz(inger) now known as Pope Benedict XVI...need I say more??)
I'm 43 years of age, FYI...and I can't afford to live in a fort. But at least it beats the hell out of living in a bubble of your own hubris and self-importance.
They may be "sluts" and "pornbots" to you, ByrdBrain, but they are still human beings worthy of respect and humanity. Bash them to your heart's content if you must, but that's your issue, not ours.
Take it somewhere else, fool, because it's just not playing here.
Anthony
figured you might be, cupcake, and she is 12 months younger than Lauren.
So, you spend a lot of time looking at hot teenagers with braces on myspace, byrd?
she is 12 months younger than Lauren
Wow, women can sure age a lot in 1 year, huh!!! :o
And no, I don't...why, is there a Myspace group I can join for that? ;)
Oh....and I'll have you know that some of us here don't mind a few wrinkles or defects or even artificially enhanced breasts; it actually adds a bit of character to the appeal of the woman. Unlike you apparently, some of us actually don't want to fuck someone who looks like our granddaughter or is so inexperienced...merely for the fun of being "the first one" to pop her cherry.
And...I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the likes of Vicky Vette (or any of those women Ren mentioned, for that matter). I've seen her videos and even her camshows as a paid member of her site and a cyberfriend..and trust me, ByrdBrain, you probably couldn't last 2 minutes in the same room with her when she gets busy...so to speak.
But, maybe, that's the whole point of all this...you're so angered and intimidated and weakened to the point of wetting your pants by women who are sexually stronger and smarter than you, so you lash out at feminists and "sluts" in favor of young, impressionable youth that you can control easier.
That's the fundamental difference between us, BB...I respect and admire strong sexual women (as I do all women), and I refuse to dump all my insecurities on them for my own personal issues.
When you can do that, then maybe I will give you a bit of respect. Until then...once an MRA jackass troll, always an MRA jackass troll. Talk to my middle finger from now on.
Anthony
Okay, this has been fun and all, but really not having much to do with a discussion o' the issues with SG... Can we go back to the topic now, and problems related there unto, rather than how promiscious women are the downfall of society or 18 years olds will always be hotter than 30 year olds?
I am happy to argue the double standard of male vs female sexual drives, motivations, and responsibility all day long (though we've done that dance before and I still stand by when it comes to womens drives, motivations, desires, ect. men don't have a whole lot of room to talk as they are men, and vice versa) and we can play the body game later, but for now...back to discussion on SG and subjects related there unto, please...
OK, Ren..I'm sorry for my part in hijacking the thread from its original purpose. I just couldn't allow BB to continue to prattle on without a response.
Back to Suicide Girls: Personally, I consider them to be pretenders to the throne of "alt.porn" (Burning Angel and Audacia Ray's "Bi-Apple" are so much better representation of true "alt.porn" IMV...but considering the way in which mainstream commerce has a way of turning genuine alternate projects into mere niche markets, it's not too surprising that the mainstream porn market has swallowed up what was an unique and fascinating project and transferred it into just another "product". It's a bit like a large corporation like Microsoft buying out a potential competitor and converting its product to become just another MS label.
As to the issues of pay and "no-compete contracts": it is indeed very common for most women doing porn to get such "exclusive deals"; but the restrictions actually vary depending on the level of talent and the company. Some contracts are stricter than others; Vivid Video, for example, at one time had one of the strictest contract on their "vivid Girls" which paid them good money (a lot more than SG did, BTW), but micromanaged everything -- right down to the size of their breast implants and the content of their personal sites; they couldn't promote anything harder than what Vivid promoted in their own videos. (Strangely enough, Ginger Lynn [Allen], the original "Vivid Girl", managed to escape such a restrictive contract when she first signed.) Most of these contracts, though are a bit less restrictive; and usually with time and longevity and the building of a portfolio, a girl could usually work her way to a better contract with less restrictions or better pay.
That's not to justify the skullduggery of what SG did; not to mention the brutality of the way the models were treated. A real organized union of talent combined with public ridicule and exposure of SG's tactics would help matters greatly..but the nature of the profession and the huge turnover of talent tends to go against that idea, sad to say.
Also...you probably know this already, Ren, but these days they refer to what was formerly called "gonzo" as now "wall-to-wall sex"...as if they're trying to distance themselves from the ramifications of the word "gonzo" with the more misogynistic brands of porn that is out there.
Again, sorry for the thread hijack.
Anthony
"wall to wall sex" (rolls eyes) smirk.
"But women have the same freedom to produce their own porn - although for women, that often comes more in the form of graphic romance novels."
Hate to shatter your neatly-categorized illusions about women, Byrd, but when I want porn, I want NO STORY LINE to speak of (Yawn. Get to the action already.)and romance novels would serve me only to keep my wood stove burning.
Kim:
That's sooooo.....GONZO!
Byrd: All this "I prefer smooth-skinned, taught, under 23-year olds" talk.
What will you do when you're 40? 50? 60? Such a proud male specimen as you must be will obviously still have a healthy sex drive -- will you be sleeping with women 40 years younger than you then?
I'm old throw-away female at age 39, long past my prime and fuckability. Natch, my opinion means nothing. But you know, there comes a time all this emphasis on youth, beauty and even sex just isn't that important.
All this self-assured "Newsflash" talk from you on women's sex drive and fertility. Gracious, you certainly seem to KNOW, don't you?
Oh my goodness, you'd almost be precious if you weren't such an asshole.
I'd love to have a drink with you.
I eat you up like Vegas Elvis ate fried banana sandwiches. I'd let you talk and talk and talk and smile. Then I'd light a cigarette, finish my drink and set about reducing your blog-assured bullshit to tatters.
Except it would be sad.
Again, just my old, dried-up egg sacks talking and not, of course, wisdom gleaned from life.
What this Old Bag finds ironic, is that if you are so interested in male rights, you may consider adjusting your stance on some issues. Much of your banter here reduces men to nothing more than walking breeding machines -- no brain, all sex, "gotta procreate, gotta spread my seed." Is that what you want for your movement?
As for the S. Girls: Another thing to hate, coming from Crusty Punk over here, I hate the "Oooh, tattoos, piercing, blue hair -- she must be WILD thing!"
You know how many times drunken, corn-fed, clean cut frat boys would leer and grope at me (when properly lubricated with booze and had the balls to do so), upon seeing my tattoos, etc? Thinking what? I must be "wild" and I so want to fuck them, right?
I used to get so mean.
Almost felt bad for some of the wide-eyed shocked looks on their faces.
Tattoos, piercings, "punk" used to be an attitude, a movement, etc.
Now it's all fashion and bullshit and completely dead.
Whatever.
Time to get my wrinkly-old, dried out sack of shit body in the shower. The horror, ey Byrd?
Ren: Well, there had to be a reason I've taken such a liking to the term "Gonzo," right ;) ?
Big thumbs up for this post, Ren :D
I used to wish I could be a suicide girl... til I stopped hating myself. Read into that what you will.
And I am BORED of Byrd et al.
"I actually had little problem with porn pre-internet and watched a fair deal of porn. After being traumatized repeatedly by shit I've seen on the net, I've afraid to even try anymore. "
Oh my goodness, I hear you. I've seen some things that reduce me to tears even now when I think about them. More than anything its the sheer naked hatred that is upsetting.
SG presents an interesting problem, imo, in that it pretends to be "alt" when it's really the same old, same old, with a little black nail poish. So, even the "alt" guys apparently only like the same old same old, with a little extra painting.
And Mr Suhl sounds not too far from Mr. Bentner to me. Where's the fire pit when you need it?
~~~~~~~~~~~
Is anyone else as sick as I am of the mra's constant stereotype and blatant lie peddaling? And the implications of pedophilia are deeply distrubing.
"Tattoos, piercings, "punk" used to be an attitude, a movement, etc.
Now it's all fashion and bullshit and completely dead" said Kim
My paternal Patriarchal Oppressor taught me:
It's only original the first time someone does it.
Now, my #2 son is determined: "no piercings, no tattoos, in 10 yrs *I'll* be alternative."
"("More evolved than the average man"??? I'll take that as a high compliment, if that was the intent...lol)"
Yep, it was a compliment. Besides, anyone who'll call Byrd out on his b.s. is a friend of mine.
"I can feel you on that, and do respect your particular taste in porn....I'm not particularly a fan of the type of "wham, bam, spooge in her face, bust it up her ass" gonzo school of making porn myself. (If the model is particularly hot and seems like she is enjoying herself and actually looks like she's getting some pleasure from it, then it might turn me on a bit.) The point remains that there are plenty of men who are not misogynistic assholes (and not a few women) who can and do get off on watching that type of porn, just as there are men whose personal tastes tend toward the softer, more romantic, less brassy style of erotica/porn."
Ok, no offense, but for whatever reason, few people seem to be able to grasp my feelings around porn. My problem with porn is not that it isn't "romantic" or even that it isn't "erotic". If that happened to be my problem with porn, I'd just argue that more women should make porn. I'm not the romantic type and my problem with porn actually has VERY little to do with physical activity. My issues with porn stem from the very real abuse experienced by porn stars - abuse such as the type that spawned this post and abuse such as trafficking, forced participation, etc., but it's also, as I already stated with the representation of women as individuals and as a whole. I don't give a rat's ass about facials or scenes involving upwards of 10 men (actually, one of my favorite scenes ever involved one woman and about 9 men). I don't give a rat's ass about bondage and I don't give a rat's ass about spanking.
See, this is something that virtually no person I've ever encountered seems to be able to comprehend. I believe it's IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to be a slut or a whore. I don't believe Ren is a slut or a whore. I just believe she's a woman who happens to have sex for money. No more no less in that respect. I know I'm repeating myself, but, my problem with porn itself has almost all to do with the representation of women. Representations like this (and these are all pulled from real porn sites):
(Warning: MAJOR POSSIBLE TRIGGERS. GRAPHIC, DEGRADING DEPICTIONS AHEAD.)
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-
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-
-
"Linda claims she is not a slut and that she only came to us as a last resort because she would be evicted from her flat otherwise, we didn't give a fuck and had her suck for cash anyway. All the way through it she was claiming not be a slut but we knew she loved it really."
"Jamie is a daddys girl but he will not want to know her after he found out what we did to his precious little daughter, we paid her a grand 300 bucks to put a huge dick in her mouth and then swallow the cum afterwards, she lapped up every drop of it like a good whore."
"These horny sluts have bills to pay and then have to come to us for that money, so we exploit them!"
"slut teens for cash: teen creampie sluts. wet sluts, tiny teen sluts."
"Drunk grannies! Greatest drunk girlfriends and drunk women ..."
"SLUTS WIFE!!! Old Bitches - Thai Whores, Dirty Aly, Interracial ..."
"Raped whores
The senior whores has to be unusually Trailer Park Whores and Prego Whores ... by Whore gets fucked en route to his WHORE of wife whore the hot whore in . ..."
"Young girls being raped free death wish rape sample movie.
Getting raped at extreme sexual trailer films at russian army rape. ... Brother rapes sister with hot busty posing with drugged raped women. ..."
"Cock Suck Whore
... slutty Whore Slut teen whore porn young Bangkok Whore sluts getting fucked ... Whore Fuck sleeping thumb Cock Whore bitch drugged Japan Whore sleeping ..."
Starting to understand me yet?
"What turns me on may not turn you on, and vise versa; but that doesn't necessarily make me a misogynistic fool, nor you a "prude"..it only makes us different."
No, it doesn't. But let's consider something for a moment. Most pedophiles honestly believe that their attractions and behavior are completely valid. There are countless men running around who honestly believe that raping their five year old daughters is a perfectly valid and NORMAL expression of their "love" for their daughters.
Just because a bunch of people get turned on by certain acts and behavior and defend it does not make it acceptable.
"What will you do when you're 40? 50? 60?"
Kim,
He's 64 from my understanding.
"Hate to shatter your neatly-categorized illusions about women, Byrd, but when I want porn, I want NO STORY LINE to speak of (Yawn. Get to the action already.)and romance novels would serve me only to keep my wood stove burning. "
Yup, me too.
Oh my goodness, you'd almost be precious if you weren't such an asshole.
Kim wins at life.
"He's 64 from my understanding."
You're shitting me?!
Faith - i hear you. I quoted a poster in a post I just did on my blog who said basically that the problem with porn isn't the sex (by which I believe she meant it doesn't matter what is happening on the screen, exactly). It's that the general vibe in porn isn't "yeah! let's have enjoy some sex!" but rather it is "let's fuck these worthless bitches".
And the examples you posted are exactly what she (and I) am talking about.
It's not sex on film, or the kind of sex on film. It's the sheer naked hatred of women. THAT is the problem.
"THAT is the problem. "
By which I mean that is the problem in addition to exploitation, abuses, etc that might go on.
"You're shitting me?!"
I shit you not.
Vera, Faith, Laura:
::waves:: Heya.
You know, I find it, I don't know, surreal? Amazing? Interesting? Fucking strange as hell? That the kind of porn you both hate/object to (Anthony as well it appears) is exactly what Ren does and loves, yet you all manage to be civil? It's completely obvious to me that Ren is never going to convince you that even though she (and others) do 'hate porn' (? I just made my own Rad Fem term and shit, watch out, I may turn into Robert Jensen) willingly and love the stuff that it is okay, and you all will probably never convince her that the willingly made stuff is some major determent to society and sexuality, but you can all discuss it...rationally.
How fucking cool is that? I mean, I don't ever see you getting Ren to lobby against the evils of JM Productions, nor she getting you to be okay with Anabolic Studios, but at least you can discuss it.
I'd give you all gold stars but it would be patriarchal and condescending of me...so I am gonna go back to work.
I honestly know less about porn than I know about 17th Century literature, but it is interesting (I guess that's the word) to me how very...hm...(I need a word here)...
banal(there it is) all the descriptives are. I mean, they're all "fuck the whore" over and over again. Doesn't that get old? fuck the thai whore, fuck the teen whore..what ever. So what's the appeal? If a regular cinema were so repetitous, we'd all go back to reading books and knitting tea cozies on Friday night.
It's like another language to me, one that I just don't speak.
I'm trying to understand it a little, but I don't get it.
RT:
I think, eventually, you just tune it out. At first it is shocking, or insulting, or whatever, but I watch what Ren watches, and what she does, and really, you get to a point where you just don't notice it anymore. I don't read the descriptors on porn DVD's or sites at this point, I just look at the sex.
It's the anti-playboy theory: I'm there for the pictures, forget the articles.
"you get to a point where you just don't notice it anymore."
Exactly. Which is one of the points feminists try to make. That misogyny has become so commonplace that people eventually just ignore it.
(I could elaborate and might later, but alas, I have had a glass of pretty darn strong sake and I'm afraid to continue at this point in time...)
Faith:
For some men, yes, for some people, yes. But I think those people were inclined to think that sort if thing anyway. The rest of us? It's a gimmick and a fantasy or an aspect of something, not the full deal reality of the actress, on or off camera. And there are some women out there who honestly don't give a crap if people think they are whores or not.
Enjoy the sake...
"It's the anti-playboy theory: I'm there for the pictures, forget the articles."
Ok, but just how many times can you watch sex (in whatever form)before it gets old? The lack of a plot alone would drive me nuts. I've watched exactly 1 porn movie (I forget the name, but it was '80's with Big Hair), other than Caligula (it was Art, not Porn, fisting notwithstanding)and all I remember was how lame the plot was. But then, I guess the plot's not the important thing.
I guess I am operating with the assumption that it's All Porn All The Time around here, and maybe that's not accurate.
RT:
"I guess I am operating with the assumption that it's All Porn All The Time around here, and maybe that's not accurate."
Rootie, you just made me waste prescious early Friday off from work Scotch by making me laugh.
Ren's blog is pretty pornarific, she's passionate about porn and her job, but that's what she gets thrown down on the most about. As for the actual Evolution Household...well, yeah, we watch a lot of porn. Sometimes it does get old. Ren looks it at clinically half the time, like market research or something. Other times, well, it serves its intended function. Sometimes we go for a while without watching any at all, but I will say, it has yet to become boring, at least for me.
kim - Yes. You have been shat on by faith.
No, I am not 64.
I do not live in my mom's basement.
I am not a virgin.
Etc, etc.
Anyhow, this has become an amusing episode of stupid human tricks. All I have to do is make a statistical generalzation, and every feminist in here jumps at the bit to proclaim how she's "not like that." As MrE noticed, women align with personalities, not issues. That's why no one cares what I actually say, they automatically want to refute what I have to say...cuz it's me. Typical female clinical behavior.
Now yes, there are exceptions to every rule...and with the clusterfuck of dykes and trannies here, the rule is more the exception than the rule here.
But out in the real world, visual porn aimed at women like PLAYGIRL proved to be a dismal failure. Just like romance novels would be with men. Not to say we don't enjoy a little bit of each, but overall the free market doesn't lie.
If women collectively really wanted womancentric visual porn that bad, it'd already have blown up by now. The supply is lackluster, because the demand is lackluster. Certainly compared to porn BMFM, that is.
Ren - Q:
1) What is your fav, hottest porn of all time?
2) What porn do you consider hottest?
3) Who is your fav, hottest porn actor & actress?
4) Was there ever a porn kawk that was too uncomfortably big?
"you get to a point where you just don't notice it anymore."
Exactly. Which is one of the points feminists try to make. That misogyny has become so commonplace that people eventually just ignore it.
Bingo. Although I'm not necessarily labelling porn misogynistic, but I do agree that propaganda has succeeded when you don't notice it anymore. Because that means it has successfully installed itself in your mind, you've internalized it and now reset your "norm" to it. Your internal clock has now been reset. Mission accomplished.
Byrd:
Actually, I think both me and Mr. E have noted that some people often have a hard time seperating people from the issues at hand...
As for "porn for women", hey, watch this, I agree with you. I've said probably half a million times there is not a whole lot of woman-friendly porn out there because women do not spend money on it. Pornography is an industry, a business, it is about making money, so what sells is what is made. If there was a demand for woman friendly porn, the industry would move to capitalize off that.
YES, there are women out there who like porn, and would spend money on it if they could find more out there that appealed to them, but it is apparent there are not enough women out there willing to do so to appeal to the 'commerical giants' of the porn industry, so they do not work to cater to a non-money making interest.
Byrd:
I am almost afraid to answer this...I suspect odd motives and all, but...
1) What is your fav, hottest porn of all time?
Not sure I have an all time favorite. I have directors who I generally like (belladonna, audrey hollander & otto bauer, erik everhard, skeeter kerkove).
2) What porn do you consider hottest?
I like gonzo, preferably the rough kind.
3) Who is your fav, hottest porn actor & actress?
Actresses: Belladonna, Audrey Hollander, Trina Micheals, Nikki Hunter
Actors: Erik Everhard, Ben English
4) Was there ever a porn kawk that was too uncomfortably big?
Vaginally, no, elsewhere, yes.
"No, I am not 64."
I'm quite sure that I read on your blog or in a comment somewhere that you stated you were 64. Doesn't really matter to me, but I'm sure that's what I read.
"That's why no one cares what I actually say, they automatically want to refute what I have to say...cuz it's me. Typical female clinical behavior."
Do you think that perhaps the reason no one cares what you say is due to the fact that you can't make a single comment without making some lame generalization about women?
SG was always hipster porn - so instead of having special sweat shop made fad clothes for the hipsters to wear, they had the shitty conditions for the women they fap too.
a woman's peak fertility is at 23 and it's been scientifically proven that men of all cultures
Pygmies? Inuits?
Must have been one hell of a study.
but, if you notice, Hugh Hefner notwithstanding, you still don't tend to see seriously aging men in your basic mainstream porn.
They all seem to be rather impressively ugly from what I've seen of porn - are ugly guys prone to being well endowed or something? Or is it easier to get ugly guys to avoid PE because you just show them a mirror and Gyah! they forget to ejaculate?
I'm being silly there, but that's the biggest trouble with pron after worker conditions, way too many of the guys could represent america at international uglying competitions - and win. And what is with the directors who seem intent that they must, whenever a guy comes, show a close up of these really ugly guys whipping out their nastiest, most intensely wrong O faces possible.
Which seriously look like someone has just dribbled molten lead down their urethra, they don't look like they're enjoying themselves at all, all over the woman's face.
And I know guys can control their O faces in private so I'm never quite sure why all due caution goes flying out of the window becasue they're being filmed for mass distribution.
Explain it all if you will, Oh Clarissa like sage of the Prondistry.
rM;
"Oh Clarissa like sage of the Prondistry."
Snort.
I've seen some (IMHO) good looking porn dudes, but to answer your question...
Because porn sells to average guys for the most part, not Brad Pitt. The guys want to see average guys (cock size notwithstanding) doing the fucking, not really hot guys, insecurity and all. The fantasy is that a hot slutty chick WILL do ANYTHING with an average guy. As for the O face...the guys often exaggerate the experience, just like the women.
I'm writing an essay (well, supposed to be) so don't have massive time to comment, but, Faith, I totally agree with pretty much everything you've said here.
As for women not wanting porn: well it seems pretty obvious to me that when most porn is about telling us we're a bunch of disgusting worthless whores who should either get off on being degraded or or just take it like good little girls (paedo overtones and all) it's not surprising that many of us take one look and are turned right off it. Het. sex, like most things, is still dictated by men for the most part, so I hold that it's a case of women not seeing what they want in porn because it's produced for men, rather than women don't want to watch sex on screen so there is no demand for porn for women.
I don't like romance, I almost never like lovey dovey sex, but I sure as hell will reject something that tries to claim my sexuality is based on my inherent worthlessness and obscenity.
Laura:
Heh, I am midway through a HUGE, and I mean HUGE post right now too, almost essay like really ;)
But..wrt porn the industry, ect...
I think a base thing we are looking at from totally opposite ends here is this:
Yes, women have an interest in sex, some even have an interest in viewing it. (I think we agree there). The porn industry itself- you are looking at it from a human view (i.e., why would a woman want to watch something that dehumanizes women...) where as I look at it from a business view (this is what sells, so this is what is made). It really is an endless catch 22...woman-friendly material will not be widely produced if it will not make money, women won't spend money unless it is more widely produced...
make sense at all?
Still catching up on reading all the comments, but just wanted to say to Faith - I for one am hearing you loud and clear.
I need to write about the whole "slut/whore" thing at some point myself. I basically believe what you do - that the labels are completely meaningless and worthless and it's impossible to be one (you put it much more eloquently, though)... yet at the same time I like when the GDBF calls me a dirty slut when we're doing the role-playing thing. Seems like a contradiction I;m sure, and one many people would jump all over and tell me how oppressed I am; but really, it's not.
Eh. It's late. Like I said, I'll write on this on my own blog eventually. Now, to finish reading the comments here...
Re: Rootie's comment about the repetitive language in the porn examples Faith cited...
It's there to increase search engine rankings. Notice how a lot of the copy sounds a little, um, ESL at best and just plain jumble-of-words at worst? Yeah, that's because they're spamming Google. It's how they get their traffic.
WRT: Being able to discuss it. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum to some degree, but Ren has stated plenty of times that she chose it, enjoys it etc. That's a "best case scenario" imo. And, the problems she's discussed with it are the problems I have with it.
I admit it does disturb me a bit to hear things like "this is what sells, so this is what is made" - because without context it can sound like it's excusing the problem. Why is that what sells? Why are there apparently so many boys who want hate with a side of sex? Why is treating women that way - even if covered by "it's fantasy" - appealing?
And, I vaguely recall someone telling me that she'd actually dealt with the "why" in the past. (I haven't looked into that yet).
Anyway, some things discussed turn my stomach and I'm quite sure that at some point I have said (or will say) things that piss her off. But we all understand that no one is coming from a place of "you must submit" - but rather a "help me understand" thing.
That said, I'm with Rootie. It seems like eventually it would be repetitve and boring. One more reason I don't watch it.
Vera;
You know what? You've never pissed me off. The fact that you are even willing to discuss and HEAR views like mine thrills me, actually. All I can say about one aspect of this is that I am living proof that it is not just the guys who like some hate with their sex, but oddly enough, I can SEE where you, and those of a similar mind, are coming from, and I am more than happy to discuss it with you or anyone else who can remember there is a difference between the issue and the person on the other side of it, and that person deserves respect. And truthfully, Mr.E is a far better person to ask about "how it affects men" who view it, how does it get repeditive, ect, because well, he's a guy, and he has seen a whole lot of it...
That's good to hear. It's proof that dissenting opinions don't have to stand in the way of understanding. That's very good.
If I expect that people should speak to me with respect despite my having an opposing view, than that it the way I will behave. To those who have shown they are mature enough to conduct themselves that way, that is.
I also see where you're coming from, oddly enough. I understand that people like what they like and will continue to do so no matter who objects or how. I understand the concern about the standards by which was is acceptable and unacceptable are judged. I understand that there are things I enjoy that other do not, and I would not stand for someone outside of it to cast judgment on it or me for it.
Which is why this is such a conundrum for me.
On the one hand, I agree that adults can and should do as they like, freely, assuming it's not at the expense of others. On the other hand, I believe it is, or rather can be, damaging to others. Like I've said a few times now (I'm a broken record) - it's not the sex, or the kind of sex - it's the misogyny/racism/violence/homophobia/etc/etc/etc. To be more clear, it's the normalizing of these things as part of sex that is upsetting and unsettling. There are few things more adept at normalizing the harmful than profit. If a studio began making snuff films, and it generated enough money, then snuff films would become normal and acceptable.
There are things which should not be normal and acceptable. Misogyny is normalized enough. It does not need to be made more acceptable. In all other areas of society we've worked to limit bigotry and its results (violence, abuses, prejudices, denial of justice) - porn is not, or rather should not, be exempt.
To be clear - while I don't wish to remove from you the freedom to make the choices that appeal to you, I will also not ever consider this type of porn something to be normalized. And, call me presumptuous, but I don't think you do either. Which is not to say it should be deemed illegal, or the people involved in it as "bad" - but it is just not something that should be seen as expected behavior for all people. If we all want the freedom to say yes, we all must have the right to say no.
While it is obvious that rape/abuse/violence against women existed long before the porn industry, there is still a deep worry in me that what is clearly fantasy is not recognized as such when in porn. I do not trust that people can differeniate between the two often enough. I do not trust that people aren't taking this back to their S.O.'s and trying to manipulate them into doing it. Which causes me to worry about the generations of people coming up raised with such easy access to all styles of porn over the internet. If this is there only education about sex, I weep for them and fear for the safety of young women. If "objectional" porn is a big money maker, than it is well on it's way to becoming normalized, if it hasn't already. And, I fear, that opens Pandora's box which means more suffering for fellow humans.
*However* I don't know how grounded these fears are. I don't know if the bad scenarios in my head could occur. And allow me to stress again that I'm not (and won't be) advocating that it all needs to be vaporized because I don't like it/don't understand it.
I won't stop worrying about its effects though. My best friend works with two researchers who are attempting to examine the effects of my "objectionable" porn on males. I've seen some of the research thus far and it does not paint an encouraging picture.
This all sounds like I'm painting all porn with the same brush. Apologies if that is how it's coming off; that's not my belief or intent.
That said, I have plenty of male and female porn-users in my circle of friends who, despite having a wide range of tastes and fetishes, are not any more dysfunctional, or weird than the rest of us.
So to end my rambling let me just say this - I don't care what type of porn you do because I see you as a strong feminist and someone who does good in the world. You have told us your views, the aid you give to others, etc. This is something that APRFs fail to recognize. They apparently see the world in black-and-white. One is either a stripper or a feminist. A radfem or an imposter. A paragon of virtue (as defined by them) or a handmaiden - excuse me, henchwoman - of the patriarchy. Humans are not simplistic creatures. You make a strong case for the argument that fantasy is not reality, that one's fantasies/activities (insert saftey caveat here) are not a guidebook to how they should be treated in real life, and that sexual proclivities (insert safety caveat here) are not a reliable indicator of moral character, political leanings, or level of mental health.
There are things we will never agree on. But, that means little as ultimately I believe our goals are the same. Basically, knowing you has opened my eyes to shades of grey that were invisible before. So, I thank you.
* - Saftey caveat - "providing that all participants are of-age, consenting of their own free will, and not harmed, or harming others directly."
That said, I'm with Rootie. It seems like eventually it would be repetitve and boring. One more reason I don't watch it.
I don't know about that. Does sex (actually doing it) get old?
"I don't know about that. Does sex (actually doing it) get old? "
Of course actually doing it can get old. But I think watching it has a far greater chance of becoming boring. Why watch if you can do, you know what I mean? Unless you're in one of those "boring sex" relationships and then perhaps watching it can help.
Jumping on the I don't want my porn to have a plot bandwagon. If I wanted a great plot I'd read a book, you know? And not a romance novel either...
Interesting timing on this post as I actually saw Missy Suicide at a concert on Wednesday. I don't know if anyone else recognised her though - I'm sure there would have been much fuss if anyone had. I have mixed feeling about SG because when I first heard about it it seemed like it was going to be a collectivist project with a bunch of alterna girls coming together to have a bit of fun BUT it didn't pan out that way, and I'm not sure to what extent that was ever really the intention. Did they sell out/get co-opted or was the way it is now the plan right from the start? I'm not sure, but the way it is now it seems pretty much as Ren said, mainstream porn with tats and dyed hair, and with a tendency for the models to be skinnier and younger looking than in porn in general. All around nothing new and nothing to ger worked up about BUT the fact that they still try to sell the whole concept as "all the alterna girls get together and have fun" is a bit suspect. The fact that they underpay their models is worrisome, as is the fact that they control the blog concept. In fact, SG seems to fit all the bad stereotypes people have about porn exploiting women, but it slips under the radar with many alterna types just because the women aren't blond with big boobs. Which doesn't say much for people's critical thinking skills.
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