(aka, first serial post of the evening)
Okay, so yeah, it’s been done before, this whole discussion of men’s role in feminism, men as feminists, or men as feminist allies, but hey, it’s a topic worth another go…
I think men can be feminists, actually, and I definitely think they can be allies. I’ve seen examples of men in real life and here on the net who, if not feminists themselves, certainly qualify as allies or feminist supporters in my book…Jack, Anthony, Amp, so on, so forth…men who support feminists and have an interest in feminist issues. You know, I have no problems with these guys. Hell Amp has probably taken more flak about porn than I have (smirk). I think in many ways male feminists and male feminist allies are, well, good for feminism for more than a few reasons…one, they can help paint the feminist movement as something other than a proposed iron curtain of matriarchal domination (yes, I know that term is going to spin heads, but.), they prove to be good sounding boards often, and well, sometimes, shitty as it sounds, they prove to be very useful mediators between female feminists and…men. When we get Project Rogue Squadron (actual blog yet to be titled) up and running, I have no issue with male feminist or male feminist allies being a part of that. Because they do have something of import to say.
Now, I feel a little bit different about other male feminists I’ve encountered, namely those who profess to be male radical feminists or male radical feminist allies…Folks like (drum roll) Dr. Bob, Richard of Adonis Mirror, the mysterious Liberal Dood, Dim, because it seems, time and time again, these fellows, oh, talk right over women they do not agree with, presume to speak for them, empathize with them, know what’s best for them, even what they can and cannot enjoy sexually…without ever really listening to a great many, well, women. Especially those who are not radical feminists, who many of these Radical Boys hold up on high as…well, saintly…yet they still feel compelled to rush in to save their virtual virtue and tell everyone what they were “really saying”, what they “really mean”, smacking down all the pro-porn, trans, ect, ect, warlords out there, (you know, gotta defend the poor, weak woman…) all the while ignoring disagreeing women’s agency, truth, experiences, voices…and in some cases, insulting them outright and questioning their sanity…shit that any feminist who identifies as male should not be doing…you know, that whole ignoring/silencing of women and putting them down…sounds kind of…Patriarchal…and misogynistic…and martyresque to me, really. Most of us ladies, radical and otherwise, can speak and defend our view for ourselves, really…
So yeah, thoughts and musings on male feminists/male feminist allies? The fellows are free to pitch in too here (except mra’s, sorry boys, this one you are not allowed to play on).
Tuesday, March 06, 2007
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22 comments:
"Now, I feel a little bit different about other male feminists I’ve encountered, namely those who profess to be male radical feminists or male radical feminist allies…Folks like (drum roll) Dr. Bob, Richard of Adonis Mirror, the mysterious Liberal Dood, Dim, because it seems, time and time again, these fellows, oh, talk right over women they do not agree with, presume to speak for them, empathize with them, know what’s best for them, even what they can and cannot enjoy sexually…without ever really listening to a great many, well, women."
Right on, Ren.
I've always been really puzzled by men trying to use feminism to get power. Honestly what is this? "I'm not threatening because it looks like I'm saying someone should eventually depose me?"
I share your feelings.
Or, well, put it this way:
"If you have come to help me, please go home. But if you have come because your liberation is somehow bound with mine, then we may work together."
--Ally Work
with the addendum:
if you have come to earn points/work out personal shit that'd be better sorted in therapy via some tortured system of hard self-flagellation and harder other-flagellation, fuck off.
...actually, a little tweaking and that might be a decent gonzo-style tagline...
I never did understand the objection to men calling themselves feminists, or working with men. This may well be one of those issues where the radfems are divided from everyone else. It's also true that there are circumstances where, in order to have the desired impact, certain things are better said by a man (I'm thinking of all kinds of counselling/activism aimed at younger men in particular).
I think it's kind of like, "can white women be anti-racist?" And, well, yes. (We can also get it wrong, and we do.)
When I was in college in the late '80s, the idea of a white person teaching African-American Studies or a man teaching Women's Studies would have riled us all up. But now, twenty years later, I'm thrilled to know that people are teaching these subjects and I don't care who they are as long as they're doing a good job.
I think the main reason why I don't care enough about the question "can a man be a feminist?" to spend much time thinking about it is because I don't have the luxury right now, given the community I live in, to blow off the men around me who are less than perfect feminists. I need them fighting with me, and they piss me off sometimes, but they're listening to what we're saying and they're thinking, and if they're willing to make a commitment and stand with me, I consider them part of my movement.
PF: that is an amazingly rational and straight forward take on the whole thing. I like it.
Well, I was a whole 'nother person when I lived among lots of radical, feminist (not "radical feminist"), cunt-lovin' women. But I don't anymore. I used to really dislike men as a group then, despite being married to one and having close relationships with some. It was like really being a cat person but having a dog that I loved, a dog that was different from the other dogs and more like a cat. ;)
The other piece of it is that in SD, I never run into men who are trying to take over my movement or rack up points with the babes by showing up at a rally. The men I know here are involved because they really think it's important - and political activism is really new to a lot of them, so they're not about to jump in and try to run things. In other places I've lived, this was more of a problem.
plain(s)feminist - Most of us do seem to mellow out as we get older. There's a certain strain of reflexive "the menz is evil" commentary that I associate exlusively with those of college age, particularly when it comes to porn, and indeed it very freqently does turn out to be the case that those people are pretty young.
Once you hit the real world you realise that you can't afford to throw potential allies under the bus with quite as much vigor, and become a little more tolerant of other people's foibles in general.
AH, LOOK, here is a FINE Example of a Male Feminist who needs to...
oh, either say it to my face, or shut the fuck up. I think, perhaps, he could be AKA Liberal Dood.
http://greatbignews.blogspot.com/2007/02/in-defense-of-people-i-agree-with.html
How thiny veiled his wit, really...
Well, if you mean "thinly veiled" in the sense of wit that is so well disguised that one might almost suspect it doesn't actually exist...
CS: I am really annoyed that a person who has never engaged me in anything but a condescending manner and has, very probably, made some serious assumptions about me, my life, my sanity, both there and elsewhere and in truth, does not know me, or what I might do for women, including those in my business who want out, has the fucking gall to post that, as a male feminist supporter and all, and think he is amusing. Sure, its okay to mock, lie and assume about women, in the name of women, of course!
I think the main reason why I don't care enough about the question "can a man be a feminist?" to spend much time thinking about it is because I don't have the luxury right now, given the community I live in, to blow off the men around me who are less than perfect feminists. I need them fighting with me, and they piss me off sometimes, but they're listening to what we're saying and they're thinking, and if they're willing to make a commitment and stand with me, I consider them part of my movement.
Word.
I used to really dislike men as a group then, despite being married to one and having close relationships with some.
See, I see a -lot- of that among women spouting the "can't trust men, Class Woman, Class Men, this is a War" thing.
and it's like: dude, if you feel THAT strongly about it, at least: why in hell are you still living with one? I don't even mean as an abuser they can't escape; I mean, y'know, yer basic male partner. Because--that just -can't- be healthy, okay. If you're going to be a separatist, then fine; but I mean, if you have all this ready-made vocabulary and theory about the danger and untrustworthiness of men, basically this one isn't an exception so much as he's on probations...
what kind of relationship is -that?-
i mean, I'm not even talking about "hypocrisy," okay, in this instance I don't care (much). just: -damn.- Who wants to live with that? Who wants to live like that? If I really think someone is a member of the Enemy Class, tell you what, I ain't choosing to share my life with 'em. And if I -don't- really think that about this person, then golly gee maybe I ought to consider whether maybe my Theory of Everything could use some adjustment.
I just skimmed that link. shrug. some kid. whatever.
Well, I understand some of the wariness regarding male feminists; I mean, back in my college days (*mumble* years ago), I certainly knew or knew of guys, especially on the Real Men Don't Use Porn circuit, about whom it was common knowledge that their major interest in feminism was access to some nice liberal girls' pants. As an aquaintance of mine back then used to say, there is no cause so right you will not find fools following it, to which I would only add that there is also no cause so right that parasites will not find a way to make an opportunity of it. So it goes.
In some ways, it's become easier for me to be an out feminist now that I'm thirtyish and married and increasingly Falstaffian in countenance; I've become, if not quite respectable-seeming, at least less likely to be mistaken for someone with questionable motives. (That, and the fact that the older I get, the more it becomes apparent to me that my own liberation is very much at stake. My motives for feminism are absolutely self-serving when it comes right down to it - just not in the way one suspicious of male feminists in general might assume.)
I've gotta say, in my humble opinion(why is it that whenever anyone says that their opinion suddenly seems a whole lot less humble?), anyways, i think that even guys looking to earn points or work out some shit have a place...they just shouldn't be surprised if it consists mostly of cleaning up garbage or dirty dishes after a fundraiser or event for a shelter.
I'm in total agreement with PF.
Doing poster runs so that women who know what they are doing and are making a more tangible difference in peoples lives can spend more time doing just that. Providing other logistical support to rallies and fundraisers. Helping women trying to escape abusive relationships get to work(kind of important to surviving in our society)There are all kinds of things that men can do to give real tangible help to goals of feminism.
"if you have come because your liberation is somehow bound with mine, then we may work together."
I think that men do have a great deal to gain from the end of forces that are oppressive to women. Gender roles and their related expectations and stereotypes are often a source of distress for many men and can often motivate them to make poor decisions for themselves(which often in turn can be harmful to women). As well i think that a change in gender stereotypes might result in fewer sexual and violent assaults against men.(disclaimer: i think that from a systemic or social perspective these problems aren't generally as materially harmful for men as women, or for that matter as urgent a problem in my mind)
and for the end of the novel...i think it's best to approach men wanting to help feminism with at least some skepticism. Even the mere presence of men can change things and possibly fuck them up...particularly in a shelter type environment. For example, one reason some of the shelter staff(where i volunteered) loved me was because(according to them) when I was around the women were less confrontational, and there were fewer fights. One woman the staff warned me as being a lot to handle was very quiet and polite with me. I'm generally pretty non-threatening and most of the women who met me or got to know me a little gave the shelter positive feedback. Not entirely sure what I think of that one...anyone have any thoughts?
Ren - The supercilious tone he takes I (and you no doubt) have heard before, and anyone taking that tone towards a woman who identifies as a feminist? Not a feminist, no matter what he calls himself. There are lots of guys like him out there, though, who for some reason have latched onto feminist as a way to hector women about their behaviour and get away with it. Or at least they think they can get away with it.
And yeah, he seems to have made all kinds of stupid assumptions. I understand why you're angry, didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't be, more that the guy's such an obvious ass that it's pretty clear nothing he says has any real merit to it even to someone who doesn't know you at all. Sorry if my response came across as dismissive of your (totally understandable) emotional reaction, that wasn't the intention.
A question to ponder for all...how do these guys end up latching on to feminism, and what to do when one encounters them? Because the idiot Ren linked to isn't the only one, and we're all going to cross paths with one at some point. In the past I've tended to dissolve into frothing at the mouth rage and start flinging insults right back at them, and while personally satisfying it doesn't really do anything to shut them up.
and it's like: dude, if you feel THAT strongly about it, at least: why in hell are you still living with one?
I know, I KNOW. Classic case of difficulty reconciling the type of feminist community around me (all bi women partnered with women and lesbians) with the person I was in love with. It's all much easier now that I'm old enough not to let anyone fuck with me. To paraphrase Susie Bright, if you wanna be part of the feminist movement, then you sit your ass down in the middle of it and you don't get up because someone doesn't like you.
However...at the same time... whenever women start sharing their stories of rape and abuse...it becomes hard for me not to hate men as a category and to see individuals as exceptions.
While I understand your issue with Jensen et al, I have similar issues with some male feminists of the nonantiporn bent who are constantly 'shitty antiporn feminists this' and 'shitty radicalfeminists that'. I have also seen one male feminist / supporter in particular mocking my feminist group in the UK which pissed me off a litte : some ally.
laura; to be sure, there are asshats on both sides.
My experiences with a so-called male feminist are summed up in a series of satirical comics, which may be found here: http://shittyfeminist.livejournal.com/
Needless to say, I remain skeptical.
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