I did not break it....that side did, with this....outing or blackmail will be met with all the money I can waste on it....no, I will have none! Not on this issue, not ever again...
From my "blarg post" (the one about the DVshelter)
witchy-woo said...
Oh I'm just loving all this pseudo-feminist outrage! That a woman should be deemed somehow "unfit" to assist women, well, it's just bullshit bullshit asshole asshole victorian (pole dancing is fab, btw) byrdeye shyte. Women can be misogynists too, yunno? Or, if not in actual fact, women can reflect misogynist hatespeech on those they claim to 'help'.
As someone who's in charge of a women's refuge (shelter) in the UK I applaud the actions of the new manager.1. Men "waiting across the street" scare the living shit out of the women who live in the house and value it as their only safe space. I evict resident women who deem that as acceptable behaviour from their menfolk - partners, fathers, brothers, pimps, whatever. Anyone with a grain of sense would understand how it feels for the other resident women and children who are fleeing for their lives.
2. Many of the resident women and children are seeking safety from the effects of what you do - the effects that it has on their own lives. Sexual violence? Ever heard that that 'fun' thing you do has repercussions on the real lives of real women (and children)? Well, yes, I know you have because I've told you.
As the manager of a Women's Refuge (shelter) there's no way I'd accept a pornography performer as a volunteer because pornography harms women and anyone who has women's interests at heart would know that. Ergo: porn performers have a somewhat different agenda. Refuges (shelters) don't exist to help the volunteer's feel good - we exist to help stop women and children from being killed and to enable their recovery process.
Perhaps the former director's boundaries were a tad blurred - whatever, I don''t know - but, for all your suck-up's, saying "asshole - how awful for you", maybe you should prioritise the life-safety of abused women and children above the needs of a comfortable and wealthy prostitute who has no idea of the damage she does to other real live women...Totally behind the new shelter manager - that's how things should be done - if you're a feminist with women's interests in mind.
The former manager? Well who knows where her loyalties lay. But you're not going back RE? All I can say is woohoo! Abused women so don't need someone like you - an advocate of woman abuse with her head so totally up her own arse - "fighting" their corner.Good. I'm pleased.
Renegade Evolution said...
Witchy:
And to think I EVER considered you someone worth making bonds with…Here’s the deal, Witchy. I never told, she fucking asked. I worked my fucking ass off at that shelter, and MY EVIL male driver sent a few abusive male boyfriends, ex’s, pimps and whomevers on their way AWAY from those women. AND FUCK YOU, you think what you do and say doesn’t have repercussions on me, on Kim, on Amber, good women all shot to shit by things you’ve said? Don't talk fucking woman-hating without looking in the goddamn mirror. Shit, you, someone I actually DARED to believe in as a damn middle ground burned me on feminism, period. I never DID this to feel good about myself, Witchy, you fucking forget that I WAS ABUSED, but by a WOMAN so I guess that was okay? That does not MATTER? I had no help, I grew up with not a whole lot and no one was there to HELP me when I needed it? When my arm was a mess of bloody burns or when MY ribs were broken AND MAYBE I want to help people because NO one was there to help me?
SO NO, WITCHY, FUCK YOU. I have HAD it with this…I grew up with NOTHING, in case you fucking MISSED that, and I want to help people, and more than ANYTHING I am damn burned that you DARE speak ill of the old director, Vi, who, sorry, unless you have LIVED in DC…well, cupcake, you have NO idea of what you speak.
I care about those women, lest you forget, witchy, I have been abused. So, yeah, once again, fuck you. To think I trusted and respected you…. Humans, you’re just like the rest of them. You fucking presumptuous...gah, I don’t know what! I never told those women what I did, I never glorified anything! I made beds, I made food, I played “uno” with the kids….So really, fuck you. Nice to see you believe in caste systems. You’re righteous; I am a filthy whore who can do no good.
Stupid me, to think I liked and respected you…I was wrong. But you are foul.
All your fucking work? Shit, woman, I spent time in Kenya setting up space for raped children and OTHER abused people, I've marched on DC, I've helped women who do not enjoy the work I do out of the business, and I've fucking cleaned blood and grey matter of of floors where I would one day sleep....so don't you tell me. Don't you ever tell me ever again. I do what I do because I have to, I want to, and it's right, everything I do. So no...don't you tell me.Unless It is to say what a fucking FOOL I was for EVER believing in YOU.
( I amend in the moment that NOT everything I do is right, but FFS.....and witchy, my dear, come to DC, I will show you a grande time, I promise...) oh, and edit, if I ever come to HATE women, would ANYONE wonder why? I've acknowledged my contribution to abuses, have you? I'll take my head out of my "arse" the second you pull your fucking ego out of yours...
Saturday, June 09, 2007
treaty? what fucking treaty?
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66 comments:
This really smacks of the theoretical-analysis-of-a-theoretical-problem thing. Witchywoo's view is valid if and only if you pretend that women never act abusively, that all abuse victims are women, that all men are likely to be abusers, etc. In the real world, it doesn't add up.
Here's something to consider, having worked in DV shelters myself: while NOT wanting to in any way distract from the utter seriousness of domestic violence, not every woman in shelter is a shaken, terrified little helpless thing, nor does every woman in shelter have an obessive, stalking, murderous man after her.
These cases ARE out there and therefore obtaining safety and confidentiality are VITAL at all times.
But let's be honest, ey? In reality, the women arriving at the shelter with black eyes and bloody faces are not really all that common. Sometimes women are escaping controlling family memebers, and yes -- sometimes the DV factor is played up quite alot due to homelessness and needing a place to go.
PAY FUCKING ATTENTION, WORD TWISTERS: AGAIN, THIS IS NOT TO DISTRACT FROM ANY SORT OF DV/VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN ANY WAY AND THE IT IS ABSOLUTELY PARAMOUNT ALL SAFETY-TAKING PRECAUTIONS ARE FOLLOWED TO THE LETTER.
Let's just be completely honest in painting our pictures, ey?
And: not ALL of the women in shelter are pure as a driven snow, folks. Many have substance abuse issues, many have "pasts" and some are/were sex workers. Having someone like Ren around -- who does not look down on their "transgressions" could be a good thing. Too often in social work I come across the case manager who is a fucking judgemental, personal agenda pushing, holier-than-thou snot.
"You should, you need to" blah blah treating the folks in shelter (homeless and DV shelter) like children.
As one of these types of worker said "Well, they basically ARE like children."
Oh "they" are, are "they?"
I doubt Ren announced what she did to residents/staff fearing exactly the sort of treatment she received.
But I'm also betting she'd be a great listening ear for a woman who wanted to talk without all the Social Worker Bullshit Buzzwords and "You need to's." I'm guessing she'd be pretty approachable and easy to talk to -- WHICH IS A KEY QUALITY OF ANY GOOD CASEMANAGER.
"Abused women so don't need someone like you." says W.
FUCK THAT.
This "abused" women, ME, has been helped very much by Ren. My attitude towards sex and men is ever so much healthier and happier than it was when I spent my time on some rad fem blogs which spoke OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN about abuse and rape and "victim this" and "victim that." What a way to heal, by soaking in one's misery and experience?
Which, to each her own. GOOD, that there are all sorts of feminists out there, as "soaking in it" might work for some -- not for me. Just ripped scabs off very old, largely healed wounds while sites like Ren's are -- GASP! -- more empowering for me.
Witchy has some valid points, however, and I'm assuming some valid experiences.
Unfortunately, due to her method of delivery, I no longer care to listen.
The message is lost.
Apologies for typo/clarity.
Too lazy to edit.
God I love the smell of both self righteous and stupid in the morning.
So let me get this straight
BEFORE taking any steps to let en know her security guard was a problem, which oddly enough only comes up after SHE asked Ren what she does .
So Women complained step,
Nope
Complaints about the ACTUAL WORK done in the sheltter
I believe none as unless you are endowed with mystical special glasses that read between the lines to see a file
That''s not what were working with.
And I personally love pseudo feminist out rage at women who would literally BRAG about kicking women out of shelters.
Because truly thats how we show feminist cred.
And you 're right
THE LIFE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF THE KIDS AND WOMEN should be prioritized
not the political feelings and social leanings of managers.
If you're a feminist with womens feelings in mind... You look at how the WOMEN and the children and the actual work done in the shelter IS being done and you find solutions.
But of course not because the fact you're a " feminist" lest us all know you are both smarter and wiser and know much better than EVERYONE including these women, including Ren, what should happen and thank fully in your position of power you can dictate all.
And will brag about lording that over Women who have no other option because your way is truth justice and light.
Damn the actual facts kids or feelings of anyone involved.
Ren I'm now going to leave this conversation because that's all I can get out with out getting grimy.
PS : Next time you want to lay out Blanket suck up comments and say we don't have women's issues at heart. Come on jsut for you we'll play teh fem cred game, lets play that one you smug self serving asshole
Whoops I meant to leave for I went there.
What a self-righteous, arrogant, presumptuous bitch. She seriously thinks that you were using your time at the shelter to preach the joys of yay porn to the kiddies?
If it was about your driver they could just have asked you to ask him to park further away. That's just an excuse.
And this women claims to care about women? Damn. Guess the "slutty" ones don't count, huh?
I would offer hugs, but I have a feeling breaking something might make you feel better right now.
Oh my gosh!!! Men "waiting outside" scare the women in the shelters? Are they the same men that abused them? Or do they just scare the women *because* they are men? So, it's ok to paint them all with a brush? What are they outside waiting for? The bus? How dare they.
I totally understand what you mean when you state that you were abused by women, and is that ok? To me, it has seemed like feminists think abuse is ok as long as it's committed by a woman. It's like- if a man abuses a woman, then it's wrong and it's repulsive and so on, but when a woman abuses a man or a child or someone else, well... she must have a reason, let's all understand her.
I don't know what kind of abuse you suffered, but I went through a lot of mental and emotional abuse from women (not my mother), and later on grew up to work with abused children of whom about 80% were abused by their mothers. I always maintained that it was wrong for women to abuse, too, but learned the hard way not to say that out loud, for the reasons you mentioned.
Maybe you should try not reading any of their crap from now on and ask that your friends not forward their written crap to you. It's obvious to an outsider that certain women want to push your buttons because they are bored and think it's fun. That these women also claim to be feminists is an outrage but I don't see them going away any time soon. The fact they they seem to obsess about what you write and then use what you write to create posts or discussions of their own leads me to believe that they don't have lives of their own. They simply sit around and cruise the net till they find something they want to pick on and they go at it. It's infantile.
You're an adult and you do not have to answer to any of these fraud feminists. Remember that.
Oh fuck all of them and their fucking "treaty!" I never agreed to that shit in the first place, because it's a goddamn LAFF RIOT. Are you kidding me, Stormy, Withcy, et al? Treaty? LOL!!!!1!1!oneOMG
*hugs* Ren
So sorry you have to deal with so much bullshit. Sometimes - okay, often - I wish I could wave a magic wand and get rid of all the stupidity in the world.
of course, the rad fem camp will deny throwing the first punch. They always do.
Watch them pull out their innocent "what? Who me?" masks.
Ugh Ren, I'm so pissed about this I had to go on a righteous rant at my place. I hate that they dress all their verbal violence up in some wishy-washy concern for suffering women. Fuck that noise.
about fucking time. yes, FUCK YOU, witchy, you hateful, narrowminded, spiteful piece of shit. And why the fuck are you even -reading- here? Fuck you. Asshole! God!
Right-wing radicalfeminism....what a waste of a good movement.
Amazing how compassion and empathy seem to melt away when sex becomes the issue.
And to be so fucking arrogant as to post her blurb of victory and smugness here, too..as if the knife wasn't twisted deep enough.
If this is what passes for feminism these days, then I can finally say it: fuck feminism.
Anthony
and by the way, you stupid, petty, vengeful fuckhead, in case you didn't notice, she didn't fire Renegade when she saw the skeery man across the street and asked Renegade if he could please wait elsewhere, because THAT NEVER HAPPENED.
no, she stuck her nose into Renegade's personal business and then ooo when she found out she was a dirty dirty stripper, THEN she told her her services were no longer required, thank YOU.
But you know perfectly well that you'd never have said this if you still didn't have a rage-on for Renegade. Christ knows why. She bent over backwards trying to be nice to you, you fucking, fucking asshole. You threw petty passive-aggressive slut-baiting at her and then threw a hissy fit when she asked you not to. And then, you sat there on your ass while another lovely woman tried to fucking -blackmail- her, even when earlier you'd come in to specifically decry -exactly that behavior- when it happened to Ren from a so-called -friend.- But -you-, you're a -great- friend and ally, right? *spits*
also, a question for witchy: would she turn away a woman seeking shelter at your refuge if she was a porn performer?
Ren,
Oh what the fuck!?!?! I've been moving all week and had time for the occasional outrage since your post the other day... but this! THIS! takes the motherfucking cake.
Witchy and other women of her ilk, who claim to love, LOVE women can not possibly be deluded enough to believe that they are helping women with their clearly open hostility toward strippers and pornified moist pussy-havers.
Common sense tells me that if I were a stripper/prostitute or even an abused women and seeking help to escape, writing of that nature would send me running in the opposite direction. Listening to the way that they speak of women in the industry sends a clear message of condescension and holier-than-thou savior complex. C'mere little deary, let's replace your abusive relationship with another dependent/passive-aggressive one where I talk about the horrible things you were gullible/weak enough to do.... but that's okay... we've saved you.... you are no longer the dirty whore that i write about on my blog. no, really... no thanks needed... i love women... except you know... that woman you used to be...
i'm sorry, but women in a domestic violence shelter need more help and listening than preaching, and by proxy even with your profession... i would be willing to bet that a lot of women would be on a quicker road to recovery reading your blog than one that preaches the love of women.... yet negates their worth for sexual activities based on whether or not it was consensual.
Discovering blogs can very much be like over-hearing conversations, and I would suggest imagine if a women who is currently in sex work... and is being abused by her partner... imagine what impression she would come away with after reading that post? It would seem reasonable that she would be concerned how she would be treated at a shelter like the one she runs, what if she doesn't appear "sorry" enough about sex work, what if she doesn't reject certain parts of her life, will she be denied... even if it doesn't put the safety of other women in jeopardy?
Sorry people, you don't build someone back up by breaking them down.... even if you do not agree with what they were doing.
anyone who feels that is a safe and healthy position to take in trying to help others is nothing more than a sunday morning public access television preacher dealing with their own self-serving pulpit complex.
*Delurking as rage and disbelief overwhelm lurkiness*
Fucking hell - this just fuels my long-held belief that women, like men, are assholes for the most part. Because we're human and all (a view to which I naively thought most of my fellow feminists subscribed.The being human part, that is.)
You don't deserve this shit.
Janey, that's nice 'n' all, but WW came to Ren's site and started saying all this bullshit. Ren didn't seek it out.
oh my GODDESS.
this is... this is terrible.
witchy woo, how do you sleep at night?
Maybe you should try not reading any of their crap from now on and ask that your friends not forward their written crap to you.
Actually, Janey, that comment was left here, on Ren's own blog. That's a bit of how hateful it is.
"C'mere little deary, let's replace your abusive relationship with another dependent/passive-aggressive one where I talk about the horrible things you were gullible/weak enough to do.... but that's okay... we've saved you.... you are no longer the dirty whore that i write about on my blog. no, really... no thanks needed... i love women... except you know... that woman you used to be..."
EXACTLY, Sassy.
Exactly!
Others beat me to it. Yeah, Janey, it's a good thought, but this was the equivalent of someone coming into her house and poking -right- at the sore spot. "Just ignore" isn't the right answer at this junction. She'd specifically BEEN ignoring frigging witchy ever since the last blow-up--hell, so had I, there's a bunch of transphobic bullshit going in the bigger world and yeah i'm gonna comment on that, it's my friends and loved ones too, it's fucking oppression and valid too--but I hadn't gone to frigging witchy-twee's, and more to the point (because I am not Renegade), Ren hadn't mentioned any of these clowns. That's why she (finally, sez I, way past time) delinked witchy-woo, which i'm sure in no way sent her into am irrational rage.
but they kept poking, and sending "anonymous" comments. And now, this, and I ask again: why were you even fucking -here-, you mullet?
with philosophies like that it's no wonder the religious right and rad-fems are so comfortable sharing the same bed.
yeah, you know what? your shuffling women out of shelters and onto the streets, shutting down places of safe employment for women, shaming women, blackmailing women, demonizing women... oh that's right because they participate in your oppression with porn
but hey... "we want to end abortion" and it stops there... no policies to make it easier to obtain birth control, no additional assistance once a woman has a baby... no just, uh don't do it.
interesting how these radfems have this big obsession with "sisterhood" and such
BUT
when we stand behind a friend when something bad happens to her
we're ass-kissers?
sounds like someone envies Ren for getting REAL solidarity from people who care about her.
It totally beats the Mystical Song of the Radfem Vagina, don't it?
yeah, and the Vancouver Relief Rape Shelter was right on too, right, because -transwomen aren't women, so sorry.-
fuck YOU. FUCK you. fuck you right in the -ear.-
trin, i don't know WHAT her fucking problem is. it's just vile, whatever it is.
bet you probably just couldn't help yourself, right witchy? That little -problem- that happens every so often; you just, well, you get -angry-. and EXPLODE. but it's okay, you know, -they deserved it.-
you grudging, minging, dirty-minded, petty, stupid, hateful woman.
More to Sassy (who I am positively in LOVE with today!): "i'm sorry, but women in a domestic violence shelter need more help and listening than preaching, and by proxy even with your profession... i would be willing to bet that a lot of women would be on a quicker road to recovery reading your blog than one that preaches the love of women.... yet negates their worth for sexual activities based on whether or not it was consensual."
Yes.
But, it appears, to certain types of "feminists," only some women derserve sympathy for abuse. I seem to recall a thread -- somewhere, gosh, could it have been at WW's, and could this thread have been 600 comments long? -- where I spoke of my past abuse in attempt to bridge gaps and create understandings.
Not only were my words apparently meaningless by exactly the type of I Love Women! women, but I was called a "piece of excretement" etc.
I am convincing these type of "feminists" are NOT feminists at all, but again, merely folks looking for a fight and using Feminist as a excuse to do so.
Shit -- at least I admitted I liked a good blog fight/debate -- until it went all ass-nuts stupidity. Not these gals -- they'll never admit that they LOVE this fighting and that sure, they've instigated it a few times too.
Treaty, my tattooed ass.
I've got "emotional scars" that will probably never go away completely. But 99 days out of 100, I am fine and strong and all that. My abuser was not only a porn fan, but one who pushed it on me -- and guess what? As one who would have a "right" to hate porn and blame it for my abuse, I DO NOT.
Fuck.
I don't want to get into all that again -- not because it's painful but because I don't want to seem like I'm begging for sympathy or appearing weak or broken.
Fuck that shit.
I may just do a post on that whole thing again (spoke of it more on the old blog), however, and how all those rad fem fake-ass "group hug blogs" made it worse. Point out how much better I am not reading that, how much happier and friggin' well-adjusted I feel reading your blog. Ren, and others.
None of my experience will matter to the Treaty Crowd.
But I'm bettin' alot of folks here would get it, ey?
Shorter witchy-woo: Screw actual women, ideology and theory first! Damn the whorish sluts, full speed ahead!
Radfem bigotry at its best! Though the upside is that the more they claim to be for women, yet take on anti-woman policies, the more fraudulent and unethical they show themselves to be.
"It totally beats the Mystical Song of the Radfem Vagina, don't it?"
Dude, angry vagina is singing the Go Pound Beef Stew Up Your Ass song. It's an old fave. Anyone remember it?
PS. Belle's fuckin' rad.
*sigh* All this makes me feel really unhappy about the state of the feminist response to domestic violence. It just reinforces a lot of the terrible things I've heard about domestic violence shelters around the U.S.
A friend of mine who worked at a DV shelter eventually quit in disgust and exhaustion at the patronizing and controlling way that the staff treated the women who lived at the shelter; the huge class/race/education level disparities between staff and clients how that made staff assume that they always knew better than clients about what they needed, what frightened them and what they were going through.
I keep hearing from people this assumption many DV shelters that abused women suffer from "battered woman's syndrome" (which is by the way, not a real psychological disorder but one that was created because our sexist legal system had no other way of acknowledging that an abuser is a threat to his victim even when not physcially right-that-minute hurting her) and need to just internalize white, middle-class feminism in order to escape.
I don't know if you've read Emi Koyama's piece "Disloyal to Feminism" but you can find it here: http://www.eminism.org/readings/pdf-rdg/disloyal.pdf
She has other writings about what it was like for her as a sex worker and a woman of color in the dv system.
I guess the only bright point is how glad I am that groups like INCITE! and Umbutu are doing such amazing work in creating genuine solidarity with abused women and not this god-awful patronizing shit.
It's telling that none of us "sycophants" has launched out the virulent insults WW has, prior to WW's post. One might wonder why she pretended to be flattered when originally linked. None of the possible explanations are a credit to her.
Sadly, WW is not only a hypocrite and blinded by narcissism, but ... is not a very good writer. She's not funny, she's not artful, and she's not even original, in the way some of her rad fem counterparts are, and in the way Ren is.
None of us "suck up's (sic. -- I'm tired of sic., WW please proof-read in future) are fooled by WW's moral high-grounding and better-than-thouing, and for all Ren's saying she hates the human race. All of us who are here realize which one has her ethics straight and which one is still struggling with the golden rule. And we'd all rather hear honesty, mixed with humor, than some tired outrage that ones partner wants to watch her belly dance.
Obviously, somebody got bored with the arguably serious outrages out there in the women's rights arena, and decided to try to play Goddess about whether women can be helped by people in certain professions... without, of course, consulting the women themselves. Fine, add disgust to pity, and we'll all move on.
I'm still fuming over the DV shelter event. Now this.
You know how I feel about what you do, right? I hope you also know that I believe you have the right to do it. As a self-determining woman.
There is nothing so sanctimonious as an over educated and verbose feminist. She's hiding something behind all that verbage.
RT, emphasis on the "over"- rather than "well"-educated, IMO. People whose education, either by books or other mechanisms, has sunk in, don't duck the tough arguments as WW typically has. And they know that the best points are backed up by logic rather than venom. There are rigorously bright rad fems; WW isn't one of them.
AL: i was actually just thinking about hauling out that emi Komoya piece; i think it's in my links somewhere. but, yeah.
and OG, no, in point of fact she's thick as a fucking brick. deeply stupid and aggravating woman.
I mean, hell, I'm verbose, and probably over-educated. It still hasn't -totally- stunted a basic sense of decency, i hope.
I'm disturbed that a woman who expresses so much hatred and patronising disdain for another woman because of her choices manages a women's refuge. I really am.
R.E.,
I'm sorry that lady was such a fuckhead to you. I don't know what makes people come out of the woodwork with viciousness when they think a "justifiable" opportunity pops up. And I can't remember the last time any of the points from people like this woman actually made any sense to me.
Doesn't exactly give me confidence in their ability to interact compassionately with people in any *other* circumstances...
You, on the other hand... : )
I personally disagree with WW's modus operandi. I honestly don't believe that whoring, voluntary porn or stripping inherently hurts all women. That's like saying a woman wearing a sexy outfit on the dancefloor at a regular club hurts all women. Does Marilyn Monroe, Madonna and Britney hurt all women? Wearing lipstick? Doing any job for money?
Truth is, there's a sexual arms race out there to enhance the quality of our lives by becoming sexier - that we ALL consensually engage in to one degree or other. Why? Because it helps us far more than it hurts us. If it didn't, we wouldn't do it. So, it's very natural and I don't think wrong. I know if I'm in a little better shape and dress up a little better - I get a better response from women. Heck, why do you think peacocks evolved tailfeathers and beetles huge horns? Do feminists think Nature is wrong here too?
And the absolute demonization of all men as "evil?" Gimme a break. What if Jesus or Buddha showed up at their door? Would they get kicked out too?
So, your anger is justified, IMO. I believe some of these fems are cutting their nose off to spite their face. And have some poor, absolutist underlying misassumptions. At least ones that I can disagree with..
Unfortunately, anger - even when justified - can also be toxic to your health.
So for your sake, you might want to try some EFT tapping to help release it. Although I'm sure blogging, jogging and rough sex are also good outlets. :)
Oh hell, I just got done reading the Koyama piece, Disloyal to Feminism, that Annalouise recommended. Perfect.
Oh, my. Don't those misguided misogynist assholes have anything better to do than come over here to fuck with you?? Why don't they go burn a bra or something. (My Lane Bryant's are too beautiful and too costly to burn. I will occasionally sacrifice one to the throes of passion, but that's it! ;)
I have to wonder why they don't care that they have attacked and vilified such an amazing example of the meaning of feminism that I hold true. How many of us are there... Ren, expatriate, BA, others here. Me reexamining what it appears feminism has become, and seriously considering eschewing any alignment with that term for the first time in over 20 years.
It breaks my heart. It pisses me off. It offends me beyond words.
Part of me want to break that tie now, in support of you, expat... but the stronger part screams "I will not let the assholes, the idiots, the haters and... grrr! How dare they pervert something so near and dear to my heart! Fuck them!! Fuck them in the worst ways they can imagine (which would be worse than anything I could come up with for them) And if that WW cunt is implying more than an username with her "witchyness" I can think of a couple of pissed off Goddesses that wouldn't mind taking her to count! Fuckfuckfuck!! I've become beyond illiterate. Enough. Rn, keep strong.
annalouise:
I agree with you about the lack of solidarity, patronizing attitude, and mistaken ideas (like 'battered woman syndrome) demonstrated by some DV shelters. I think it's important to keep in mind that DV shelters are very heterogenous in their approach, theory, practice, etc.
I have seen shelters that are absolutely against the "battered woman syndrome" idea, shelters that welcome all people escaping violence including men, shelters that do not make a distinction between workers and clients. I've also seen shelters with a weak approach to victim services, shelters with very little ability to advocate for their clients, and shelters with extremely hierarchical approaches to people that need help from fellow humans.
It saddens me to see so much hate being thrown around on this thread even though it is normal to have strong opinions on this topic.
I also worry that some of the absolutely crazy ideas some people have about DV shelters will be perpetuated and magnified by the report of this one incident. (Not criticizing you for sharing it, RE, but just throwing it out there that DV shelters should not be considered to be similar to each other).
awww, shucks kim... i am thoroughly pissed off at this latest piece of woman hatred...
i've been open to rad-fem theory, in fact a lot of the realistic theory even in regard to porn is worth listening too and considering..... in fact i even love how they highlight trafficking and other human rights violations....
however, it is no different when an anti-choice group points out the discrepancies in our culture that women who get abortions do so because they are being abused... so if we stop abuse they won't need abortions. it's circular, judgemental and sitting on a pretty perch called "but, noooo we love women" ala Leslie off her fucking rocker Ulruh.
and what exactly is radical about getting rid of porn? that's your radical idea? the decency standards weren't good enough? do you really believe that oppression of women started with internet wagging off? as pointed out by someone here recently... printing of the written word is most likely the "root" of oppression... starting with everyone's favorite book the bible....
so yeah... i guess i'm not so into taking on people who utilize capitalism in an ethical manner as much as i am taking people on who capitalize morality through their religious institutions... the very same people who share the disdain for pornography....
RG, if by "hate" you mean mainly byrdeye, he's rather umm special that way. not at all representative of what most of us think, in many many many ways, just so we're clear.
This sucks.
But my half glass full side has just gotta say that this reminds me of hearing my abusive ex was still angry at me years after I had stopped giving him a moment of thought. Which made me think: I win. You lose.
The women who post here have lives that are full and fun and we've moved on. We don't need you hating us to form a community and care for one another.
That's what happens when you don't base your theory on being A Victim.
To be clear, carry on with the much deserved anger and also remember the goodness that is Ren and this community she has created.
Oh gods, modified acupressure has hit the MRAs? *snickers* Wow, I think it was almost a decade ago that I ran into tapping! I feel old.
"Your only problems in life are you negative beliefs." Gods, newage at its worst.
Tapping is cool, though. It's a good way of self-balancing, though using it to modify emotions can be dodgy. It's based on the principles of acupuncture and acupressure, though without that pesky "knowledge" the Chinese thing practitioners should have. FWIW.
LOL, I wonder if I worked with witchywoo back in the UK... There were a few managers of some of the shelters who would switch quite suddenly between being vaguely human to being complete assholes without warning.
printing of the written word is most likely the "root" of oppression
It predates that somewhat, actually. Old Skool Judaism != feminist, Pagan Rome != feminist, Ancient Greece != feminist, Ancient Egyptians != feminist.
well, i'd spin myself with outrage, but i'm outraged out. the most i can muster these days is a "soft interrogative" fart about anything. and everyone else is doing a fine job. from me: hugs and more hugs. you always say you hate people but you're awful damn nice to people anyway. :)
QD: Well, as my mother always said, "THere is no reason to be uncivilized"
Thanks Belledame, I did not think that Byrdeye was speaking on anyone's behalf.
I was actually referring to the general tone of hate (or at least very intense anger) that I noticed in the previous thread and to a lesser extent, this one. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about their anger, but it just saddens me to see so many "fuck you's" and so on.
"Your only problems in life are you negative beliefs." Gods, newage at its worst.
Uh, nowhere did I say that was the ONLY problems in life. It's just a simple method for emo detox.
And something a laymen who is not a Chinese acu-master can self-administer. May not be as powerful for sure, but again, it's just a simple tool for noobs.
Uh, nowhere did I say that was the ONLY problems in life.
The quote marks indicate it was a quote, Byrd. That's what they're for. If you check the link you gave, you'll see where it was quoted FROM.
It's not the shelter people are angry at, RG.
I woudl liek to say I am surprised... .
All I will say is that I bet you and your ability to see people as individuals will do more good for victims than the insane moralizing fo those who can't put their hatred aside long enough to help.
verte said...
I'm disturbed that a woman who expresses so much hatred and patronising disdain for another woman because of her choices manages a women's refuge. I really am.
As am I.
"A friend of mine who worked at a DV shelter eventually quit in disgust and exhaustion at the patronizing and controlling way that the staff treated the women who lived at the shelter; "
There is a lot of this in the "helping" professions. I saw a lot of this in elementary education, aimed mostly at the parents, but splashing on the children of those parents of course.
These people are "charity vampires" They need needy people to tend to, like a spider keeps her catch alive and imprisoned. They live off of them and derive their sense of self-worth from the "nurture" and "concern". Since they are basically vampires, they are quite vicious when someone treatens their food source - for instance any move to heal their charges and so they can lead healthy independent lives.
WW and this new director fit the mold of the high-minded middle class meddler, who seems to think the whole world is her household to rule and set in proper order, and anyoen who resists is just a stupid, naughty child. They are Puritans - attitudes towards sex and basic grooming and so on, posing as progessives.
The final idiocy was that clueless comment about the former director. What a clueless, tin-eared, British comment.
yeah, as so often, she completely ignored any signal that -something loyalty to the Patriarchy versus the Wimmins might be involved here- (viz the difference between the two directors). as you say: Washington D.C. is a -leetle- different in its particular makeup and social divisions than wherever the hell she is (Manchester, is it?)
not that there wasn't plenty of other evidence for her assholery already; just, yeah. Mighty white of her to stop on by and share her wisdom, really. I don't know what the world would do without the likes of her.
and yeah, considering that this is a woman who once blithely offered to sacrifice her son if it would make the world safer for her granddaughter, and wouldn't you all do the same? --i worry, you know, just a tad about those "nurturing" instincts of hers...
But you hate humans.
anony- fuck yourself with a tire iron.
Ren,
"Fuck yourself with a tire iron" is going in my header rotation, stat!
Ren, I'm sorry to see such abuse heaped upon you. In my ideal world people wouldn't see sex as a commodity to be bought and sold, but being sex-industry-skeptical certainly doesn't mean that I'm anti-you or any other sex-worker, or that you somehow aren't "pure" enough to help other women with your strength.
As someone who has worked in a number of DV shelters, I feel myself on both sides of this very pointy fence.
On the one hand, I think it's abhorrent that a volunteer who has devoted years of service to the shelter would be let go so quickly and because she also happens to be a dancer. This isn't even about views on porn and/or sex work -- hell, I'm a pretty radical feminist who is very much anti-porn and anti-sex work (but NOT anti-sex worker -- I fall more into the harm reduction camp). But I don't think that someone's outside work makes them inherently a bad volunteer -- or a good one for that matter. The only thing that matters is their desire to help and their willingness to help. Yeah, I'd hope that a dancer wouldn't be talking all the time with all the women about her other job. But that has nothing to do with the fact that she's a dancer -- I'd be asking that of all the volunteers, regardless of their other jobs -- secretaries, CEO's, SAHM's, what have you. I believe in boundaries and I believe that volunteers (and staff) are there for the residents. I feel it is inappropriate to be talking about your personal life to these women (there are exceptions, of course, you shouldn't be seen as a robot or closed off, and sometimes a limited amount of sharing can open doors to communication, but for the most part, boundaries are important, and it's important for the integrity of the shelter, the staff, and volunteers to maintain those boundaries, and to make sure the residents are focusing on their own lives and own problems and not allowing themselves to be diverted to talking about other peoples lives.)
On the other hand, I absolutely think that ALL volunteers (and staff) should most definitely be scrutinized, put through a background check, all of that. And not for funding reasons. Hell, even the agency I work for now, which receives absolutely NO government funding whatsoever, conducts background checks on all the volunteers. Not to make sure that they have "acceptable" outside lives -- but we have to make sure that we don't have abusers getting access to vulnerable women (and men and children), or, for that matter, private and confidential information. It's not a guarantee, for sure, but it's a necessary safety precaution. I've had to submit to a background check for every single job (paid and volunteer) that I've ever had in the violence against women industry. And, frankly, I wouldn't feel ok working for an agency that didn't do such a thing.
Now, wrt the security guard waiting across the street issue...well, that I'd have a serious problem with. Now, first, I'm not sure if this is a confidential shelter you were working at (I've only had experience with confidential shelters), so that might change the dynamics slightly. And, especially if this is a non-confidential shelter and/or other volunteers and staff have friends/family members meet them across the street, then I think the least this Director could have done would be to talk to you about it first, ask you to ask the security guard to meet you somewhere else or something.
But, working in a number of confidential shelters, I can tell you most definitely having someone waiting for you across the street -- regardless of gender, regardless of relationship to the staff/volunteer, would absolutely be grounds for dismissal. There is always a drop-off point several blocks from the shelter where friends or relatives can meet people, any closer than it is unsafe and inappropriate. And, this goes for the residents as well as staff. And, YES, if a resident had a friend/family member meeting them at the shelter, they'd be asked to leave. And if their abuser found the shelter and was hanging around -- even a few blocks away -- and wouldn't leave, YES, that resident would be asked to leave. Not in the "kick you to the curb, see ya, good luck and good riddance" kind of way. No, we'd help them find another safe place to go -- another shelter, find a place to voucher a hotel room, voucher the room ourselves, etc. But they absolutely could not stay there. It would not be safe for them or for any of the other residents, staff, or volunteers there. In fact, if the woman, her family, her abuser, or her abuser's friends/family live or work within 2 miles of the shelter, they will not be accepted into the shelter in the first place. This isn't about punishment, this is about safety.
And, just to add on to my last comment...
Even if it wasn't a confidential shelter, I would still have a problem with anyone hanging around outside, across the street, whatever. In fact, at one of my places of work (yes, I work 3 jobs -- a confidential DV shelter, a non-confidential homeless shelter for single women, and crisis line in a confidential office location, in addition to volunteering as a SA Advocate at a different crisis line housed in a confidential location) is a non-confidential setting, and yet visitors are not allowed in the shelter (without prior approval from the shelter supervisor) or to be hanging out, waiting, or otherwise meeting up with someone from the shelter within a 3 block radius. The residents are explicitly told this when they enter. If they violate this rule, they will get first a verbal warning, then a written warning, and if it happens a 3rd (or 4th, 5th, or more times), they get a 3-day bar from the shelter. Staff and volunteers are held to the same standard (as they should be).
It's not about "oh, men are scary." But, people -- esp. men -- who are hanging out in front of a dv shelter, yeah that can be fucking scary. And, yeah, women can be abusers, but the vast majority of women who are seeking shelter are women abused by men. (This is not directed at Ren, so much as the general responses about how horrible it is to assume a man is an abuser and not want them hanging out in front of a shelter and whatnot.)
I do think it's entirely unfair to fire you because you had someone waiting for you outside the shelter. Whether it was a new policy or a newly-enforced policy, she should have had the respect for you to discuss it with you first, to ask you to meet your security guard a few blocks away or further. If you chose not to comply, then yeah, I'd agree with asking you not to come back, but then it would really be your choice. I also hope she is applying this rule to everyone at the shelter, not just you or not just to people who have big, scary-looking security guard dudes waiting for them. So, I'm not trying to justify her firing you, whether for being a dancer or for having men waiting for you outside. I'm just explaining why, in general, I don't think it's a good idea to have *anyone* (esp. big, scary-looking security guard dudes) hanging around a shelter.
Ren,
I'm so very sorry that I was busy with other shit while you were going through this. If I had known about it, I'd have spoken up sooner. I'd rather eat my own tumor than to read a word that asshat has to say about anything.
Bint: It's okay, you have your own shit going on, and that should be first for you, I would not want it otherwise...take care of you!
Does porn cause violence?
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