Okay, the following post is inspired in part by a comment Liz made on my "Difference" post...which got me thinking, but before I get there, and as much as I hate doing this, I am going to, because I want people who wish to comment here on the issue to feel comfortable doing so, so first, for this post and the comments...some rules...please respect them, because I will moderate you out.
The Rules:
-This thread is open to women only
-No insults
-No Anonymous comments
Right then. The Politics of Sex:
There is little doubt in my mind that for the most part, men and women, in general, view sex a bit differently. Yes, there are individuals who blow the bell curve (raises hand) but over all, yep, I think they tend to look at it differently. And yep, sure enough, I think most, a lot of people, male and female, like sex. I've never called a radical feminist a prude, because I think most radical feminists like sex. Nods. Yep. I do I do. I am pretty sure most people, no matter their politics, like sex...and my theory on the matter has always been a bit like the Burger King Mantra: have it your way. I am all for adults, who are consenting of course, having the kind of sex they want to have and doing what they enjoy...even if other people don't like it or understand it.
I don't believe any sexual act is, by nature, degrading. I think the attitudes surrounding it or the people doing it can make it so...and if I read her correctly, Liz is somewhat with me on that. For instance, as she stated, blow jobs in and of themselves are not degrading. If a woman likes giving them, great, however, if she doesn't, she shouldn't, and she shouldn't be required or pressured into it. Same goes for any other type of sexuality or sexual act. As I said, I am big on doing it your way. It seems to me (and this is me, just my opinion) that a feminist thing to do, regarding such things, would be rather than spend days debating whether or not blow jobs (or any other act) are by nature degrading to women, spend days talking about how if a woman, personally, feels a blow job (or any other sexual act) is degrading to her, she should not do it, and how one can help other women have the strength, under pressure or not, to stand up and say "I really don't like doing that because I find it degrading, so I'm not going to do it." That way women who don't like doing act X might not feel the need to do it, and women who do like doing act X don't feel like they are being eviscerated as patriarchy fuckers for enjoying those things. I don't know why, but this simply makes so much sense to me...having it your way.
I will also say, and once again, me speaking for me alone here, that if a woman is truly having sex for her own reasons and her own pleasure...purely sex here, not relationships...I feel like there is often, out of some (I repeat, some) radical and radical leaning feminists a whole lot of concern about what he is thinking. Which, yes I am weird and all, but I don't really...get? Do I expect respect out of a long time partner? Yes, I do. I also know no matter what crazy, dehumanized, degrading things we might do in the bedroom that if I sense a streak of disrespect once we're out of there, that his ass will meet the curb. But in casual sex, which I am doing because I want to, seeking pleasure because I want it...why do I really care what he thinks? Am I going to call this person back? Ask him out for coffee? Expect a relationship out of him? No, I'm not...so if I feel like giving him a blow job because I enjoy doing it...really, why should I care what he thinks about it? I don't really care what he thinks, so why should I care if he's harboring some degrading thoughts in his head...after all, I'm only using him for sex...I mean, he's not all that "humanized" in my head either?
I also get both angry and a bit sad with what I take as an attitude out of some (and I repeat, some) radical feminists that women who behave sexually in a manner that they would not personally are somehow damaged, or have no real concept of their own sexuality, or merely pretend to like what they like because supposedly it' is what men like (things such as BDSM, anal, role-play, verbal degradation, rough sex or yep, putting porn in the mix). I mean, there are women out there, even women who never fuck men, who do like those things, and have very enriched sex lives with those things in them. Frankly, and I suspect I am not the only one, such attitudes really make me feel like a non-person/woman because I'm not into doing things their way. I mean, if you do an interest search on any sort of sex-based community, you will find scores of women into BDSM, both tops and bottoms, and rough sex, and degradation, and yep, porn/porn style sex too. Why shouldn't, if they are consenting, be able to have sex their way? And you know, most of them have examined the "whys" regarding why they like those things, and have considered the gender politic implications, but it is still what they like...and because they like it, not because it pleases the men...though often that is a pleasant side effect if they have male partners.
And is such sexuality male influenced/ male centric as I've seen said? I don't think in a lot of cases it is...but really, so what if it is if that is what the woman personally likes? If that is how she gets off, if that is what gives her orgasms and sexual enjoyment...well, so what if it seems male-centric or whatever else? I mean, for me, the idea of feminist approved styles of sex is, well, as squicky as most feminists find my brand of sexuality....but I am all for them doing it their way...why can't the reverse also be true? I'm not trying to tell anyone else how to have sex, or force anyone to have sex the way I do...so why the disdain and speculation and other such things for people who do it my way? Or the BDSM way? Or any other freaky/kinky way? I honestly just don't understand. Some women honestly, for their own reasons, like things like BDSM, or name-calling, or rough sex, or dressing in revealing clothing, or group sex, or being objectified, or whatever else. Why should they have to change, or not do what they enjoy? Yes, perhaps if they all gave it up and had sex in a different way, or no sex at all, perhaps in years long after all of our bones have turned to dust, there might not be too many woman-hating men who demand blow jobs, abuse women, and act like assholes out there...but in the meantime, all of those women who do like those things are being denied the right to have sex that they enjoy, to have sex their way, and how fair is that?
And yes, I realize on matters such as porn and "raunch" culture, I am biased. I admit it. The sex industry pays my bills and I enjoy doing it, I like the porn-style sex, and yep, I do love my raunch, so yeah, I do have a slanted view on it. I do and I can admit it. But I can also read..and just as I see a lot of women who hate these things and find them dangerous, I also see a lot of women talking about how things like BDSM have improved their lives and feelings about themselves, women (not in the sex industry) who got implants and see at as one of the best things they've ever done for themselves, women who say that pole dancing has honest to god improved their health and their level of comfort with their own body, and yep, women who like porn. I rarely see any of them saying these things are "feminist acts", but I do see them say they hate being discounted as feminists, women, and humans for liking them, because truth is, that hurts. It hurts just the same as a guy calling them a whore, a religious person calling them a sinning pervert, so on...because all they are trying to do is live their lives, and have sex, their way.
I understand the want or need to examine culture, and sexuality, at the politics there of. I understand the desire and want to do these things. I do. I think it's a good thing on some levels, and I think it can be a destructive thing on other levels. I understand women's anger with raunch, kinky sex and porn, and I understand other women's anger at the hatred of that anger and the way it is often expressed. What I don't understand is why we cannot all just agree to disagree and let eachother have it our own ways, why we can't maybe help each other make sure the other is never forced to have it in a way that isn't theirs- no matter what that is. That's what vexes me. That's what I think needs some discussion...
And to that end, I open the floor, and yep, Rad Fems are welcome to comment too, so long as they remember the rules.
Discuss at will-
22 comments:
I think perhaps it's human nature to believe that if someone else's views are different from yours, that difference is a de facto condemnation of those differing beliefs, and therefore a condemnation of the individual entirely. That's the feeling I get, anyway. It's that way in religion, politics, whatever. It makes for alot of tension.
Hi, thanks for writing this, I think it's important to talk to each other even we don't fundamentally agree on certain things.
Yes, like I said, I do think that if a woman is happy and comfortable doing something she feels like doing, then I think that's okay. But it really depends if she feels she's been coerced in some way. I have felt guilt before for not doing BJ's, and that acts as a kind of coercion.
I've read things in magazines before (before my awakening to the idea that most women's mags are crap anyway) in the help sections where a woman is unhappy or uncomfortable with doing something and the advice has been 'grin and bear it'!! Or if a woman is uncomfortable with her partner's porn collection and he insists on using it all the time, the advice columnist usually says something along the lines of "it's normal, just deal with it". I don't think women's concerns are taken very seriously. As a teen I felt as though if I didn't do a, b or c, even though they didn't make me happy, the man I slept with would be unsatisfied. There wasn't much about women's wants even in women's magazines.
As a society, we seem saturated with images and expectations of what happens when a man and a woman are in the bedroom. It happens in movies, porn, on TV, magazines and so on.
From quite an early age I think men pick up these things, especially now. We are not given proper sex education, no guidance on our sexuality, we are not told as teenagers that it's acceptable to have feelings of desire.
And so, I think, teenage boys pick up sex from porn, from adult mags or from Lads Mags, which contain derogatory and sexist ideas about women. I've noticed the way some teenage guys talk about women in places such as myspace, that hell, even teenage girls refer to themselves as whores or bitches.
This isn't acceptable because if our younger generation get their sexuality from porn and lads mags then I don't think we're in a very healthy place.
Maybe female sexuality would be more liberated if we were taught that we don't have to do what we don't want to do. That young women don't need to sleep with a guy if they feel pressured. And if men understood that women like sex, their own way, and shouldn't have to do anything they don't want to and should be treated with respect.
I will admit to skimming (I'm at work - I'm the IT person and get to set what's safe - HEH, but I am busy today) but I agree that sex, any sex in and of itself is not degrading. My personal experience is that the very same acts that I grew to loathe and resent and found degrading with my ex-husband I now love the hell out of with my fiance. I know part of this is because one is a *much* happier relationship than the other (DUH), but the other part has to do with how they each view sex. One viewed it as dirty (no matter how much he might say to the contrary) and anything other than PiV sex was especially naughty and taboo. The other is just in it to give and receive pleasure. Which is what sex (other than the obvious reproductive hooha) to be about, isn't it??
Liz:
I agree completely with the idea that porn is not good sex ed for teenagers. No agrument there at all.
And see, that's where I think we (as women) should focus more energy...getting women to say what they do, and do not, want out of sex...
(and yes, womens mags are horrible too...I haven't read one since I was about 17)
Yeah, the women's mags are awful. I just wish that the people who're trying to provide healthier antidotes would focus more on "fuck, no, -if you don't want to,- don't do it; and if he keeps ignoring your feelings, per sex or otherwise, he's an asshole, deal with him accordingly"
...than on the specific acts. Because, it doesn't -matter.- It doesn't matter if it's BJ's or spankings or missionary intercourse or hell I don't know, going fishing with him. If he's ignoring your needs and insisting that his should come first, -he's a plonker.-
Stand up for yourself. Learn to say what you do and don't want, clearly; and if the BF is still being a plonker, refuses to even -consider- not being such a plonker...get whatever support you need and -dump him.-
BD:
EXACTLY!
Ren: First off, please promise not to beat me to death for saying this...
I agree with you, people should have the kind of sex they want. Women included. But, as much as I hate to say it...
trembles a little..
I do feel like as long as people (you included) continue to make porn where women are called degrading names and stuff like that and men, especially young ones, it's going to be very hard to convince some of them that not all women do like that sort of thing. I do think this issue can be addressed via better sex education, but we don't have that right now.
(runs away)
You know, one thing I'd really like is people frankly discussing what it means to have a hangup vs to set boundaries.
because there are some people who are simply using their own negative views to shame their partners for having fantasies they don't like.
I agree that what's most important is to stop telling women no matter what that "oh, you're uncomfortable? you've got a hangup, deal!" and that one way to handle this is to say, "you've always got the right to say no, no matter how ridiculous it seems."
but I think I'd like something more nuanced, in SOME cases: "No, of course you don't have to do this if it bothers you. But why does your mate want it? Is he wanting to act out a fantasy that does involve degradation of women, or is he simply more sexually adventurous or has a fetish?"
Because if he's interested in putting "his woman" in a degradation scenario, that's very different than if the two people have different kinks.
And if the two people have different kinks, it CAN be appropriate to sometimes indulge that somehow. That might just be allowing the guy to mention fantasies that squick. That might be allowing him to have other lovers. That might, even, shock of shocks! mean occasionally consenting to the activity.
And I really wish the discussions didn't polarize so heavily into "Oh, no one has the right to demand that!" when it's not always about rights or "You've got hangups" when someone just wants to set healthy boundaries.
On my site sort of recently I posted about this and PIV, and actually said that, well, maybe some of the radically anti-PIV folks are maybe being unfair never trying it or other forms of penetration ever, for not allowing their partners to be honest about desiring it, etc.
Instantly I'm telling people what they HAVE TO DO for saying that. Eeee eee eee, she said women have to go with the status quo blah blah BLEAH.
Where what I'm actually trying to say is that sometimes there's something more mutually respectful than OMG NEVER EVER EWWW OHMYGODDESS. Like "sure, you want that, and I can't give it to you, but once a week we can talk dirty about it because you love it." Or opening the relationship. Or breaking up and owning that it's YOUR desires that ended things, not your partner being terrible for liking something you can't stand.
Or, SOMETIMES FOR SOME PEOPLE, doing it to give your lover pleasure, if it's not an absolute dealbreaker.
I've been asked to do some things I didn't want to do, and asked, and asked. Why can't men leave things ALONE when you say NO? In my observation, including the realities of many women I've talked to, THEY WON'T. Well, maybe if I ask again, if I buy her a new refrigerator or camera and THEN ask? Maybe if I ask again in another year? Maybe if I ask... on and on. NO, GODDAMMIT. Now, STFU.
But they don't. They just don't.
Now, after all of this, say that the Man in Question finds a woman who will do this sexual thing he wants. He can't wait to tell you: SHE did it, SHE says it is not degrading, SHE says blah blah blah. They throw this woman in your face, as somehow your superior, and your first impulse (not MINE, this is a general YOUR) is to put this woman down, since she is being used to show you how fucked up you are. A feminist would say, fine, go marry HER then. A feminist would hold the MAN accountable for HIS behavior (including trying to piss you off in this instance). But I daresay that takes a pretty high consciousness level. Most contemporary feminism is liberal, not radical. Unfortunately, women usually react in a traditional way, putting down the OTHER WOMAN rather than holding the man accountable.
Sex workers and porn have been used to BEAT WOMEN OVER THE HEAD, and that is why you hear women say something "scares" them. They know sooner or later, some guy will show them a photo and ask them to do it. As soon as something "exists"--becomes photographed and acted out in the realm of the possible, then it enters mass consciousness as something women should do. Men often experience sexuality in a consumer culture as a series of baseball cards--I've had one of those, one of those, a redhead and a black one and a Chinese one... I've had blow jobs and anal and BDSM... it is like they turn into collectors. Male sexuality is often "alienated" that way, and totally focused on novelty. As long as it is, women are the novelty, and as such, we look at every "new" development in porn as something WE will be called on to do, or be compared unfavorably to the women who WILL.
And that's my take on it. And no, I don't necessarily mean ME, but general US.
I hope that all made sense. I'm sure it made me sound like I come from the Doris Day era, but I honestly think social mores have NOT caught up to behavior.
So the floor is really open? OK, here we go.
I do not understand why we, as feminists, care so much about what men think about our sexual behavior. Now, I'm coming from a somewhat different perspective than you - I like BSDM, but I HATE name calling. Which makes sense, since I'm a dom. I also require some emotional connection with anyone I'm going to sleep with.
BUT...I don't need to be in love with them, and I don't need them to be in love with me. I do need to feel friendly with them. I need to feel able to be huggy and affectionate afterwards - but then, I need to be able to feel huggy and affectionate with my friends in general.
I don't like the idea that a man I'm sleeping with thinks that anything we're doing is degrading. If I get that feeling I will stand up and walk away (and yes, I really have done so, as in got up, put my clothes on and left). That's how I'm wired, emotionally, and part of it may be a dom thing. Who knows.
So, I get why women care about what the specific men they're fucking think about them. What I don't get it why feminists, as a group, in a collective sense, should give a shit about what men, as a group, think about sex act X. People are not an undifferentiated mass when it comes to sex. They view different acts differently, and they like different things. It seems to me that what we all need and want, both women and men, is to be fucking partners with whom we fit, who are a good match for us in attitudes and tastes. Why should any of us care what people as a whole, those other people over there who we're not fucking anyway, think?
And the idea that feminists as a group should base their idea of what consitutes "proper" and "acceptable" sex on what men think...well, that's ludicrous. What kind of revolutionary movement does that? It's as if a bunch of Marxists were saying that we shouldn't form a union because the boss would think we were bad people. Why do we even care?
"I do feel like as long as people (you included) continue to make porn where women are called degrading names and stuff like that and men, especially young ones, it's going to be very hard to convince some of them that not all women do like that sort of thing."
This seems a sensible idea and it can be applied to many products. If we know some people will misuse a thing, let's regulate the distribution of the dangerous thing. Which is done with guns, liquor, drugs and porn.
To me its about focus. I had the benefit (heh) of living with a psychopath for a father. He could take anything and turn it into a tool of emotional damage. It would have been useless, but probably safer, to direct my anger at the tools he used rather than his own fucked up self.
Especially if some of those tools can be valuable to other, less fucked up, human beings.
Honestly, the tool he used to totally fuck up my life was a simple wind up alarm clock. Someday I'll tell that story. But, I can assure you, the alarm clock was not the cause of my terror. I own several today.
"I will also say, and once again, me speaking for me alone here, that if a woman is truly having sex for her own reasons and her own pleasure...purely sex here, not relationships...I feel like there is often, out of some (I repeat, some) radical and radical leaning feminists a whole lot of concern about what he is thinking. Which, yes I am weird and all, but I don't really...get?"
Hmm...maybe I can throw some light here.
I *heavily* agree that no consensual sex act is inherently degrading. I've always taken the tack that what takes place between two consenting adults is none of my business as a radfem, and I've always thought my other sisters were a bit paranoid about bedroom issues.
BUT.
**I** will admit that I care very much about what takes place within the head in a partner, and I'll explain why.
At the risk of having a paranoid chip on my shoulder, I despise the idea of some asshole thinking that he can do things to me that he *secretly* views as degrading to me and get away with it. When I marrry, I'll engage in a wide variety of sexual acts (because I'm a bit of a perv myself:)), but I'll never sign up for someone thinking he can get over on me by "degrading" me secretly (within his own head) and then pretending I enjoyed the degradation. Personally, I NEVER sign up for degradation, ever...and it disturbs me that some asshole might think that anything I did with him would lend as "proof," even in his own little twisted deluded head, that women *as a whole* enjoy being subjugated.
There's also this: I've a bit of a Mafia mentality on this: "NO ONE gets over on me and gets away with it." False pride, to be sure, but it's still there. If I found out someone really thought I was enjoying getting subjugated--and, I've explained to that guy that I don't sign up for that, ever--I get a bit of a Godfather attitude, and I'll be the first to admit I'd be very punishing towards that man. Someone could argue that that's *his right* to think that way, and I'd come back saying I didn't sign up for sex with a pig. In short, I'd feel HEAVILY DEFRAUDED and taken advantage of--and there would be consequences. There was a thread on Twisty's blog IBTP where "Jonathan" talked about enjoying degrading women in his head; if I knew what he was really like as a person, I would NEVER have sex with a man like that. Personally, I think that's why he hides his shit--because he KNOWS a lot of women would walk away from him if they knew.
However, there is this point: he *would be* an asshole, and asshole attitudes DO OUT. The symptoms would HAVE TO come out, outside of the bedroom, and THAT'S when one is able to identify the cad and throw him out.
I guess part of what pisses me off about this whole possible scenario is that there ARE so many men who think **all** women like submission or enjoy having their dignity taken from them. And they get their "proof" from withholding the full story from the women involved.
But ultimately, someone could say--well, you had an orgasm, Scarred, why care what this guy thinks? Okay, even if he "defrauded" you, why care? And my point is...if I had the *proper* information--meaning, if I knew he actually thought like this, I never would have consented to sex with him to begin with. I just don't care to reward pigdom of ANY stripe, or have anything to do with a pig.
Now, that's just MY mentality...I know it's a bit weird. But it's just me.
This is why I've taken to refusing sex with someone until I really, REALLY get to know them well...and marry them. Prideful, I know. What can I say.
Having said all this, I think the right thing to do is to have REAL sex education for boys and girls, and especially concentrate on boys getting the REAL 411 about sex from non-porn sources. I heavily agree with this.
I do feel like as long as people (you included) continue to make porn where women are called degrading names and stuff like that and men, especially young ones, it's going to be very hard to convince some of them that not all women do like that sort of thing.
I hope this isn't biting your head off.
The logical flaw the young man who watches porn and declares that that is what "women" want is that they assume that one woman = all women, or even "porn = reality".
That means that the problem occurs prior to him actually watching the porn in the first place, and requires that he be conditioned to A) think of women as not having self agency, B) thinks of women as interchangable and lacking a true self, C) that the optimum way of finding out what any particular woman wants is to watch porn involving a completely different woman and assuming that that somehow is consensus view on "what women want" and D) he is somehow unable to notice that the whole thing (the porno) is, pretty much by definition, horribly and unbeleivably badly acted.
This means that by the time he's watching the porno, and by the time the porno can actually affect his tiny little heads, he's already been conditioned by at least 3 different patiarchal memes to view and obtain specifically patriarchal lessons from porn, and more to the point, those 3 memes are therefore the actual root problems, to which porn is merely a tertiary, almost redundant, factor in the conditioning of the child.
Attacking the first three problems would seem to be liable to produce far more effect than attacking porn would for the same desired goal.
R. Mildred, you are SO **RIGHT ON** about your observations about the flawed, crappy logic that a young man who watches porn and then goes on to assume that "all women like x behavior."
I particularly loved what you wrote here: it 100% DESCRIBES the problem of his worldview:
"That means that the problem occurs prior to him actually watching the porn in the first place, and requires that he be conditioned to A) think of women as not having self agency, B) thinks of women as interchangable and lacking a true self, C) that the optimum way of finding out what any particular woman wants is to watch porn involving a completely different woman and assuming that that somehow is consensus view on "what women want" and D) he is somehow unable to notice that the whole thing (the porno) is, pretty much by definition, horribly and unbeleivably badly acted."
I would just like to add some possible varying factors that could influence the situation as well.
Possible Factor 1: as a young man,odds are good that he's looking for information, technique, and philosophy abou "what women want." And let's face it, our sexual education in the United States is worthless for equipping both younng men and women for becoming full and skilled sexual partners: it's very mechanical and/or abstinence-based.
Possible Factor 2: because young men are in a search/learning mode when they turn to porn, *they become more suggestible, i.e., less critical of the information they're taking in and more focused on learning the specifics of what they're being shown.* NLP practitioners and others have observed that when people are intaking what they consider to be information, they're more focused on "learning the material" than questioning its validity, value, or accuracy. It's the same problem that people have in learning things on the Internet or in a book; people have a tendency to believe everything they read or see unless they actively cultivate a questioning spirit of critical inquiry. And *YOUNG* people in high school/early college are *not* that far off from learning the ABCs of rote in kindergarten...which means that their critical thinking skills are probably not that highly developed just yet. (I really believe you need a certain degree of age in most cases to get the proper level of skepticism.:))
Possible Factor 3: the young man in question may also be just highly suggestible! There is mounting scientific evidence that child abuse and neglect can and often does produce a greater level of suggestibility in its victims. Given how widespread serious abuse and neglect of children is in the United States, I really believe it's an overlooked factor in just how gullible and "stupid" some people become/appear to be.
I also really loved your observation HERE:
"This means that by the time he's watching the porno, and by the time the porno can actually affect his tiny little heads, he's already been conditioned by at least 3 different patiarchal memes to view and obtain specifically patriarchal lessons from porn, and more to the point, those 3 memes are therefore the actual root problems, to which porn is merely a tertiary, almost redundant, factor in the conditioning of the child."
ABSOLUTELY! Porn, *at most*, is just the reinforcer. The **primary** conditioning of patriarchy takes place prior to the young man ever seeing a porn flick.
In fact, how about this wild little theory?
How about...as the CULTURE becomes less patriarchal and more egalitarian, the PORN will follow? In other words, porn is only a barometer/thermometer, and not the actual cause, of nastily pressuring, degrading sex?
Let's face it...porn sells. And porn is designed to make a profit. Degrading porn sells because people find degradation arousing...in other words, they've already bought the patriarchal degradation meme, THAT'S why they find degrading porn arousing. They wouldn't buy it otherwise. The damage is already done before they've even purchased it. Outlawing porn is as dumb an idea as outlawing alcohol and cigarettes...it won't do a *damn* bit of good, and actually, it'll only make things worse.
There's also this to be said: some women and men enjoy rough, violent sex and engage in it **consensually.** Under those circumstances, one can't honestly say that it's **degrading.** Degradation implies that there are feelings of humiliation and coercion, and if you're truly engaging in something you really enjoy, it's dishonest to say there's degradation taking place.
Just as a thought, though...I don't watch rough or violent porn, so I don't know if they have this, but I for one would just like to see *disclaimers* at the beginning of the films that state that not all people enjoy or like this type of sex, so "caveat viewers--get REAL, HEARTFELT CONSENT before trying this." Yeah, I know it infantilizes people to a certain extent, but we put Surgeon General warnings on cigarettes, so why not? Given how many suggestible noodleheads are running around, it can't hurt...
"That means that the problem occurs prior to him actually watching the porn in the first place, and requires that he be conditioned to A) think of women as not having self agency, B) thinks of women as interchangable and lacking a true self, C) that the optimum way of finding out what any particular woman wants is to watch porn involving a completely different woman and assuming that that somehow is consensus view on "what women want" and D) he is somehow unable to notice that the whole thing (the porno) is, pretty much by definition, horribly and unbeleivably badly acted."
you know - that is awfully smart.
"I've been asked to do some things I didn't want to do, and asked, and asked. Why can't men leave things ALONE when you say NO? In my observation, including the realities of many women I've talked to, THEY WON'T. Well, maybe if I ask again, if I buy her a new refrigerator or camera and THEN ask? Maybe if I ask again in another year? Maybe if I ask... on and on. NO, GODDAMMIT. Now, STFU."
Said it before, will say it again: this is where you cut your losses and dump the motherfucker already.
Where what I'm actually trying to say is that sometimes there's something more mutually respectful than OMG NEVER EVER EWWW OHMYGODDESS. Like "sure, you want that, and I can't give it to you, but once a week we can talk dirty about it because you love it." Or opening the relationship. Or breaking up and owning that it's YOUR desires that ended things, not your partner being terrible for liking something you can't stand.
Or, SOMETIMES FOR SOME PEOPLE, doing it to give your lover pleasure, if it's not an absolute dealbreaker.
yeah, well put.
except for i think for a lot of women, especially the ones who respond enthusiastically to the sort of "I Blame" talk, they don't maybe have a lot of experience setting boundaries, saying "no" or "I want" and having it taken seriously.
Which is a bigger problem, and of course it's a lot simpler to simply cordon off a bunch of things and set them beyond the pale than go, y'know, maybe this is also something to work on outside of this particular relationship.
So, I get why women care about what the specific men they're fucking think about them. What I don't get it why feminists, as a group, in a collective sense, should give a shit about what men, as a group, think about sex act X.
Hear, hear
However, there is this point: he *would be* an asshole, and asshole attitudes DO OUT. The symptoms would HAVE TO come out, outside of the bedroom, and THAT'S when one is able to identify the cad and throw him out.
yes. and I also wish that there was more attention paid to "what signs of assholery to look for -outside- the bedroom-," because one starts to get the impression that if it isn't about degrading sex or "femininity," (or overt violence of course), it doesn't really matter so much.
Maybe female sexuality would be more liberated if we were taught that we don't have to do what we don't want to do. That young women don't need to sleep with a guy if they feel pressured. And if men understood that women like sex, their own way, and shouldn't have to do anything they don't want to and should be treated with respect.
And I think likewise, women should be taught that we CAN and SHOULD do whatever we feel comfortable doing, as long as it's consensual and no one is being harmed. The assumption that women don't want to have sex, as the default position, rankles me, I'll be honest. And Liz, I'm not saying that's what you were saying. Because I absolutely agree that EVERYONE - regardless of gender - should be taught the importance of consent. And part of that, to my mind, is having my 'yes' be respected just as much as my 'no', and vice versa. Because let's face it, there's a whole lot of "nice girls don't" stuff that's still very deeply ingrained in the culture, and it can make for a lot of angst and self-hatred for girls growing up (speaking from my own experience here).
And I really wish the discussions didn't polarize so heavily into "Oh, no one has the right to demand that!" when it's not always about rights or "You've got hangups" when someone just wants to set healthy boundaries.
Well said.
Just a quick comment for now.
I agreed with a lot of what you said... (And a lot of what Liz said in her comment)
I agree with what you mean about sex acts not necessarily being degrading in themselves. I think it depends on the circumstances and those involved. I'm sure there are a lot of people who believe that sex act X is degrading, whereas there are many who don't think so. As for blow jobs, I don't think they're inheritently degrading, especially if a woman's gonna get some oral herself in return. That said, I've always, always, always felt that the idea for me - personally - of getting down on my knees and giving head would just be degrading. I wouldn't like the feel of it, I'd feel too submissive, etc etc. So, I would refuse. That said, I'm pretty sure that there are also some women out there who actually get off on the idea of giving fellatio on their knees, maybe even for the same reasons which would make me feel degraded. Just a personal perspective.
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