By now, it is known that I use offensive language in my blog- including George Carlin’s seven words you can’t say on television. I throw out the terms slut and whore quite often (generally referring to myself). I’ve published comments with just about every slur under the sun in them, because that’s just the way I do things. I’ve been asked not to use words like slut and whore, I’ve chosen to continue to do so, because frankly, I see nothing wrong with someone being either or both. There are words you won’t see me use unless quoting someone else, and those include racial slurs, and when alerted to a preferred term by various folks…as in, a term they prefer to have used towards them, well, I then make an effort to use it.Which brings me to this, from my “I love you, I hate you, I want to recreate you” post:
Katie said...
Hey - RenEv - could you please not say "Please to explain?" That particular line is an oft-used mimicry of Asian American/Asian people speaking English, and is super hurtful to read. Thanks.
Renegade Evolution said...
Katie: My father says "please to explain" all the time and I love the way it sounds and it's a great endearing quality of his, his unique way of speaking English, so while I mean to offend no one by using it...no. Just like I won't write off 100 other odd phrases my foreign parents & family have endeared to me.
Katie said...
RenEv -I'm not asking you to write off the rest of the fond memories you have. I'm also not implying that you mean to offend anyone. The phrase "please to explain" happens to be one that your dad says. The phrase also happens to be one that's been in use for over a century to stereotype Asian and Asian American accents and English (and others, actually). It's a crappy coincidence that these are the same phrase, but I'm kind of freaked out by what I see as your calculus here - "Asians and Asian Americans can go to hell because this sentence has no context other than the way in which I'm using it." It does have another context. You can see it in such historical examples as this:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9407EFD7173EE033A25753C3A9639C946897D6CF&oref=slogin
(which is an article written by a white dude around the beginning of the last century in the persona of a Japanese boy)It's obviously not the biggest deal in the world, but I am also frustrated that you're responding to straw man arguments I didn't make. If you're not going to change it, I have zero control over that. But know that your memories don't have a monopoly on meaning.
min said...
I wasn’t going to say anything, but now I am.
Katie: You do realize that Ren is an Asian American? At least by half or so? Her dad is Mongolian. I’m fairly certain she’s mentioned that. She’s also been asked by people to stop using words like whore and cunt, but it hasn’t stopped her. Other people of her other nationalities (Russian- which hey, most of Russia is in Asia, other Eastern European stuff) also use that expression when speaking. It’s part of her speaking pattern. Ingrained, as it were, as are some of her other expressions. In her case this sounds like someone complaining about a New York or Deep South accent. Asians, though made fun of for it in the media, are not the only people to say “Please to Explain.” I’ve heard it out of a whole lot of non-Asian people, especially those who have English as a second language, and honestly, it is not like she’s calling people racial slurs.
I’m Korean by the way, and Ren using that expression in the manner she uses it does not bother me in the least. There’s a point to political correctness, but when people nit-pick an otherwise accepting and racially inclusive blogger over something this small in the big picture, it seems petty.
Jene said...
So Min, what you are basically saying is that its ok if you are asian, and that other people say it as well, so it's really really ok. I still am not convinced that it is ok. and i'm not sure that that is what Katie was arguing in her last response. Frankly, I think that there needs to be some owning of the fact that the phrase "please to explain" is hurtful, period - regardless of whether one's family says it or one's ethnic or racial background.
As a black woman, I hear the n-word being used by my family and by black people all the time. I feel relatively little ease knowing that that incredibly hurtful, inflammatory word came from the mouth of someone who looks, or is related to me.
So yes, the Renegade finds herself arching one, and only one, eyebrow at all of this. Mayhaps be that I am a thick-skinned callous fuckhead, mayhaps be that I am stubborn. Mayhaps be that I am tired of people, all kinds of people, asking me to reform or modify any one of my countless behaviors or mannerisms because they are “offensive”, be that taking cock up the ass on film for money, having fake tits, or using expressions like “please to explain”. I don’t know…I generally think I am pretty reasonable. I am certainly not looking to offend Asians or Asian Americans. Yet…I’m kind of with Min on this one. Christ, I offend men and women daily with my vulgarity. I don’t discriminate in my colorful verbiage, adjective, noun, or phrase…I am just rather like a sailor most of the time. Truth is, I never even thought of that particular phrase as one that was used to mock Asians or Asian Americans…. that’s how familiar I am with it being used to do so. It’s a phrase used commonly in my household, by Asians and non-Asian, yet non American-born, relatives alike. And also, truthfully, I am fucking sick and tired of having to monitor everything I say for fear of offending somebody. The eggshells are broken, y’all. (Y’all, another word I use, though it is often used mockingly by comedians to portray Southerners in a condescending way. And we won’t even start with the way I say “sorry” and other words aloud, which often gets me mistaken as a Canadian, and man, do US comedians have a field day making fun of Canadians.) The N-word? Absolutely inflammatory, as are countless other racial slurs/miscellaneous slurs thrown at African Americans, Jews, Asians, Latinos, Poles, Irish people, Italians, homosexuals, and so on…also words I don’t use. However…
My ultra PC bone is fractured in about 1,723 places at the moment. It just is. There aren’t enough surgical pins in the world. I hate having to consider every word of every sentence I write, ‘cause sure enough, pretty much anything and everything I write is going to offend someone, yet when I write with that in mind, I end up saying nothing at all…and that really offends me. And y’all know, according to popular theory, I am a selfish destructive fuck of a vile person.
So yeah, to sum up, we can discuss and all, but consider me skeptical, resistant to change, and scowling in the corner.
31 comments:
Well you know what? No matter what you do, you're always going to offend SOMEONE. And I mean that as a general "you," not you personally.
That's just the way it is. And while I don't like the line about "oh you liberals are so sensitive!!" as it often gets thrown around - especially because you know how I feel about "sensitive" being used as an insult - well... there comes a point. I mean, Jesus. Let's all just come back down to Earth.
Of course this got me castigated in the past... but I think it's just basic fucking common sense. Ren, you're not being offensive, and you shouldn't alter every little word you use just so some random people aren't uncomfortable. Everything is about context. If you were throwing out slurs left and right and being totally disrespectful of people's experiences and feelings, that would be one thing. But you're not. And that context MATTERS.
Personally I take the opinions of those who *know me* much more to heart than those of people who just *think* they know me.
Y’all, another word I use, though it is often used mockingly by comedians to portray Southerners in a condescending way.
Yes Ren, I am so offended at your use of "y'all!!!"
Except, oh wait, I use it a hell of a lot myself, because that's just the way I talk, being a Southerner after all. A lot of us down here use it.
When some asshole at PodCamp NYC talked to me in a fake Southern accent in an obviously condescending way, you bet your ass I was pissed as hell.
But you saying "y'all?" Um, it wouldn't even enter my mind to be offended. That's just a regular everyday word to me.
Again... context MATTERS.
In Australia, the anti-Asian right wing politician Pauline Hanson was so well know for saying "please explain" . That's pretty much all I can think of.
Yeah ... I've been having personal problems with the whole PC/walking on eggshells thing myself.
I'm torn between: oh, lighten up, you can't please everybody and consider the source and content of said offense, please, before jumping down someone's non-PC throat
and
Well, I DO get offended by certain things, notibly the R-word and very much so, yet this is a term many, many people use all the time and mean no cruelty by it. But still, it bothers me -- therefore, I should indeed refrain from using any non-PC terms, even in jest and w/folks who are "okay" with such terms, myself because everyone has "R Words" of their own, you know, and I respect that entirely.
At the same time, I think there are folks who frequently use non-PC, offensive words only and exactly to test to see who becomes offended. Then, these people act amused at the "emotinal, uptight" responses by the offended person and flip it back around so THEY (the person who said offending word) look like the good guy and the others are just irrational jerks.
I hate that a lot -- this being baited in order to provide amusement for some self-righteous smug asshole. Additionally, I'm more and more of the mindset that being purposely offensive (WHEN EVERONE IS SUPPOSED TO KNOW YOU'RE KIDDING AND THAT YOU ARE NOT, OF COURSE, RACIST, HOMOPHOBIC, ETC)is pretty fucking infantile.
Surely one can be more creative than that?
SOrry to ramble.
But for the record, while I respect Katie's feelings, I get where you're coming from, Ren. The eggshell walk, esp when you bend over backwards to keep an open mind as many of us do in damn near everything we do, can wear on a person.
At the same time, I think there are folks who frequently use non-PC, offensive words only and exactly to test to see who becomes offended. Then, these people act amused at the "emotinal, uptight" responses by the offended person and flip it back around so THEY (the person who said offending word) look like the good guy and the others are just irrational jerks.
Again I think: CONTEXT MATTERS.
And I think there are gradations of offense. Some words, you might not like, but you know you can't control everyone and make them say only words you like. So you deal.
Other words are MAJOR triggers for you and others. You can't stand them at all. They're huge.
I wrote a while back about a girl I do volunteer work with who doesn't like the word "lame." She's disabled and I had never thought of it from that perspective. When people say it she just calmly points it out, she doesn't come in all flaming and shaming and blaming at them. I just try not to say it in front of her anymore. I didn't say it that much to begin with, and there are always other words to use. One I use more frequently is "weak," and a while ago I got to thinking, will someone find *that* offensive? And then I thought, for fuck's sake, there's a limit to these things. So I say "weak."
The thing that irritates me more is when people get pissed off about terms used by people who are TRYING to be as considerate and respectful as possible, and just might not KNOW a certain term. Like, most people have never heard the term "cisgendered." So if they say something else, like "genetic" or whatever, they're not being disrespectful; cisgendered is just a pretty academic term that not a lot of people know. It's not used a lot in everyday conversation. You can't blame people for not knowing it.
And once I had a friend who got pissed at someone for saying "sexual preference" instead of "sexual orientation." For fuck's sake. Yes, you can correct people about the meanings of particular words, but Jesus, you don't have to be an asshole about it either.
"please to explain"
huh. I thought it was yiddish.
ya learn something nu every day...
(get it?)
The problem comes in when the choppy English gets waaaayyy overused to mock every Asian person out there.
Fact is, most Asian-Americans speak perfect English. And yet, everytime someone imitates an Asian, they must throw on some thick accent.
Effecting the accent itself is not the problem. Because it certainly does exist to a degree in reality. Rather, it's the ridiculous overusage and overidentification with all Asian-Americans that is.
For example, the Korean man on Lost was forced to speak in only Korean, even though his English is way better than his Korean in real life. So, all of this ties into an underlying xenophobic agenda to deny Asians Americans "citizenship" and to keep them at bay as perpetual foreigners.
And many other Asian actors are also routinely asked to speak with a mockcent in order to fit the stereotype.
Note: This is not a statement against Ren's specific usage here...but the larger issue as a whole.
"My ultra PC bone is fractured in about 1,723 places at the moment. It just is. There aren’t enough surgical pins in the world. I hate having to consider every word of every sentence I write, ‘cause sure enough, pretty much anything and everything I write is going to offend someone, yet when I write with that in mind, I end up saying nothing at all…and that really offends me."
Exactly.
Amber: Yeah, I get what you're saying and you're absolutey right about context. More later, maybe ... stupid job!
I'm not sure why the understanding cannot go both ways. I mean, you use that phrase based on your own cultural, foreign-speaking-parent tradition. I have Asian relatives who use the phrase, and yeah, it's something that does get mimicked in a hurtful way. But why assume that your use is mimicry rather than your own legitimate cultural tradition? That strikes me as both a suggestion that you're not Asian "enough" to use it other than in mimicry, and that your own traditions aren't legitimate enough to permit you to use it without scrutiny.
I'm with you, Ren. I think there are a lot of expressions that can offend, and the offense makes sense, but that not everyone can be expected to know are offensive. And in those cases... well, it's worth considering when someone says "don't say that" but I don't know if it's required. Particularly if you have a totally different use of said words in mind.
Like... I read something recently where Hillary Clinton was blasted for saying she wasn't sure if Obama could "do the spade work" of... something. And the idea was that this was supposed to be a reference to black people as "spades" -- an old slur.
And to me, well, yes, if that word was/is used that way, then yeah that choice of words was bad and call-out-able. But I'd never heard of such a thing, and I'm not so sure Clinton was speaking in code. It seems quite possible to me that she was thinking of digging with a spade, ie. doing backbreaking work. She was commenting on, if I remember right, the daily grind.
And so... well, I don't want to say "that's not offensive" because, well, to people that read "spade" as that slur, sure, it is. But when should we presuppose people mean those things, and when are they just choosing a metaphor or phrase that also *happens* to be used in an objectionable way too?
"The thing that irritates me more is when people get pissed off about terms used by people who are TRYING to be as considerate and respectful as possible, and just might not KNOW a certain term."
Yeah. I remember at one point getting really steamed at someone for saying "cripples", but when I called hir on it, ze actually really didn't seem to have any idea this would be upsetting, and stopped right away.
I'm not sure what rock ze was living under, but the confrontation and vitriol I expected were not what I found at all.
"Oh! Shoot, I didn't mean that at all! What should I call you?"
While the phrase "please to explain" does sound possibly like the phrasing of someone speaking English as a Second Language, in the contexts where I've seen it used here, it uses this effect to make a point.
I understand when I read "please to explain":
"I think you are treating me as stupid, when I'm not"
or
"I think what you just said is immensely stupid and possibly not even making sense in English".
Both of which play heavily on parodying the racist attitudes of Englishmen (and, I guess, Americans, though I have less basis to talk about that) when abroad, where the assumption is that the inability to understand English (when it's not the native tongue of the listener) somehow makes a foreigner less intelligent.
The effect for me is that when Ren uses this phrase, she is saying "If you think you can get that concept past me unchallenged, then you are as stupid as the racist scum who think foreigners are thick."
Maybe I'm getting the wrong message, but the message I hear is a strongly anti-racist one. As Amber said, it's all about context.
My parents told me "no" as a child, it made me upset. My wife deprives me of sex by using the word "no". Please don't use the word "no" I find it really upsetting and offensive.
Frankly, for me? I find the way non-native speakers use English to be frankly charming and, in some ways, much more creative and to-the-point than the way native speakers talk. My roomie last semester was an international student from South Korea; I helped her with her grammar on her papers, and while in many cases her usage was strange and we both got a little giggle out of it, I believe she knew I wasn't giggling out of malice (this is one thing that's missing from online communication). And in some cases, I asked her to leave certain parts of her papers intact, because while a native speaker might not say that, it was nonetheless an extremely good way to say it.
Oh, and I've never heard, even from my most racist acquaintances, the phrase "please to explain" used as an insult against Asian people. Now, if Ren went around transposing her "r"s and "l"s in an attempt to mock Asian folks, _then_ I would be offended, because that is basically the only anti-Asian-accent slur I've ever heard.
So basically...I'm with Ren on this one.
I saw the exchange a couple of days ago, but because your blog is blocked by my work firewall as a porn site[1], I wasn't able to reply when they came in. What I wanted to point out was this:
Ren made a statement that Katie found hurtful. Katie made mention of this asking Ren to stop. Ren explained that she wasn't trying to be hurtful. Other people dismiss Katie's feelings as being over-reactive, Katie is still offended, things blow up.
In my mind this is an issue between Ren and Katie None of the rest of us really need to involve ourselves in that discussion. We're just going to piss off one or both parties making them feel like they are being minimalized. It isn't our job to analize other people's intent.
DJCD -- this post opens up the issue for discussion.
I don't think anyone was really *dismissing* Katie's feelings so much as acknowledging that grey areas exist and that here, on Ren's blog, it is ultimately Ren's call as to what she will and won't say.
Ren was curious to hear other people's opinions and experiences with this particular expression. I've heard them. I wasn't attempting to dismiss Katie, just hear other views.
Oh good lord.
Why is it so hard to grasp that it's one thing to say something which dehumanizes a POC by accident, but that it's far worse to then reply to a POC pointing that out in a polite manner as though their experience of being dehumanized by something a white person does doesn't really count unless the white person agrees with them.
I mean, someone's waffling and moaning about being forced, at gunpoint probably, to "walk on eggshells" around the various and seemingly unending terms, sayings and words that have deeply harmful meaniings and tones towards all manner of people.
But the thing is that people aren't really trying to force anyone to not say certain things, what they're saying is that something you say hurts them, dehumanizes them even.
And while you may resent being forced to know you're hurting people after they mention what you're in actual fact doing to them
Regardless of your oh so fucking noble "intent", which in no way actually detirmines how your words affect the people who read them, becuase writing is a process that occurs between the writer and the reader and anyone who assumes that only the reader or only the writer has the definitive take on the text is a bad writer,
And you may even resent being given the choice which you then have to consciously make from that point onward about whether or not you care if what you're saying is hurting other people.
But no, when it comes right down to it, being called a racist is not as bad as being a black person who gets "nigger" thrown at them, it's not even as bad as being someone who has had to live being an actual asian american (as opposed to someone who not only passes for white, but has spent most of her life living as a white person) seeing something that happens to be a stereotype of asian americans.
The difference is that "nigger" in the mouth of a white person or Chris Rock has that threat of violence and Othering behind it, as does the asian stereotypes.
I'm kind of confused where this sort of misunderstanding is comeing from ren, I know other white ladies say that everything you do is evil (and I still say that the wii is worse than the holocaust & salvery combined fwiw), but you've generally been a good ally to POC so I'm more confused why you decided to do a chasingmoksha impersonation this time and proceeded to act as though, obviously some random asian american just hates your guts and that you're then allowed to argue in bad faith like you've done.
It's about common human empathy and acknowledging other people's basic humanity, not about "don't do that because we say it's wrong".
There's a difference, it's kind of important if you're going to call yourself an ally, but you are of course perfectly free to say "fuck the nips, they're not the boss of me" and pretend that you and marcotte and Amber and chasingmoksha and vallenti and Schwyzer and Avarosis and Trex and Hamsher are all being oppressed by POC (and that's not racist because some of your best children are mixed raced!), I just don't think it's a good thing really.
You can make up your own mind I'm sure.
RM:
Done now? Feel better? It's not okay that I throw the topic out there for discussion? You know, get opinions and share my feelings, thoughts and experiences on the matter, or NO, I just have TAKE IT.
whatever. Stop playing the goddamn appropriate content cop and coming over here to thrash my fuckin ass whenever the whim suits you and deciding what I can and cannot talk about regarding anything. I mean, you are a white lady, right, probably even moreso than me? Right then.
And.... SCENE.
Oh boy oh boy, can I relate.
I was wondering when that was going to happen (the deluge about how you're such a racist doing a CM impression, I mean; not the relating).
Yep, that's me, totally oppressed by POC. Uh-huh.
"it's far worse to then reply to a POC pointing that out in a polite manner as though their experience of being dehumanized by something a white person does doesn't really count unless the white person agrees with them."
RM, I disagree that this is what's happening here. Nobody's saying that it doesn't count unless the white person agrees, just debating as to whether Ren's heritage and consequent reasons for using the term, in this particular case, clarify the context in such a way that it's not offensive. This was opened for discussion, and at least one Asian-American woman has spoken up on the issue. Other POC are free to disagree, it seems like to me.
Also, it seems a little presumptuous to claim that you know by someone's appearance what implications her foreign heritage has. That's a large part of the picture, but not the whole canvass.
Renegade Evolution said...
Ren was curious to hear other people's opinions and experiences with this particular expression. I've heard them. I wasn't attempting to dismiss Katie, just hear other views.
I don't think you were. Others maybe, but not you. I was just trying to point out that until you made this post, others were making it worse. I think the only thing you didn't do that maybe you should of is more clearly acknoldged that she was hurt by your words, that you didn't intend them as such, but that you aren't going to "walk on eggshells" in your own space.
It's okay for people to take offense to things we say sometimes. It's the nature of who and what gets talked about. Real change can't occur if we can't feel free to express ourselves and our ideas because we MIGHT offend someone. What we can do is acknoldge their feelings when the express them, help them understand us while they help us understand them.
It's only with that understanding that we can try and find meaningful ways to communicate to each other.
RM, I disagree that this is what's happening here. Nobody's saying that it doesn't count unless the white person agrees, just debating as to whether Ren's heritage and consequent reasons for using the term, in this particular case, clarify the context in such a way that it's not offensive.
Except I just pointed out that Ren's dismissive reply and this presumption that white people can get to decide what POC are and are not allowed to feel or find offensive is far more racist than the initial term could ever be - and that the discussion that is itself based on a racist premise.
"Premise" means the assumptions that form the metaphorical foundations of the metaphorical house of the actual discussion or arguement.
Ren: to be fair I do lurk a lot, mostly because I don't do that whole "me too!" circle fellatio thing, but yeah, I got miffed last time because there was a shit load of ablist bullshit getting thrown around which you seemed quite happy with becuase it was being thrown at people you do not like, and I'm miffed this time because there's a bunch of racist bullshit being thrown this time which you seem quite happy with for whatever reason.
Therefore obviously I just hate you personally and are just looking and waiting to find things to criticise you about.
And because this implies I hate you on the same level of say Kos or Marcotte, I treat you just like I treat them - by avoiding ever actually confronting you with your occasional falings to your face and content myself with just bitching about you from a distance with the occasional threat of post-revolutionary violence thrown in for catharsis.
Becuase that's what you see me do all the time towards you, isn't it?
And I've never defended you, and I've never actually said "hey, wait a second, what you're saying about ren and her lifestyle is complete bullshit and here's why:" to one of your detractors.
I actually refused to get into a ren hating convo with some people off blog, mainly because I didn't feel that that would be a good thing in general and because I felt that you were ostensibly an ally and I don't generally like talking about allies behind their back, largely because if I have a reasonable criticism of them I expect them to have enough maturity to be able to discuss it (not a strawman or a jump to arguement by pathos in place of it) with them, and mostly because I find that stabbing people anywhere but in their front is kinda cowardly.
But then again Chasingmoksha did this whole selective memory thing with the "oh but you never defend me! How dare you criticise me!" sprinkles on top last year and I wasn't impressed then, so... well, just take care and try to avoid clenching your buttocks too hard, I really wouldn't want you snapping your neck or something.
Amber: I might have you confused with another Amber, which Amber (or whoever) had the defensive reaction to people criticising her racist father that caused all the drama in Belle's souper sekret email list? Because htat's the one I was referring to, based on what I saw her write at BL's place wrt to the whole snafu.
RM:
What you're missing here is that I wasn't in on the ablist bullshit and some of the people apparently throwing the ablist bullshit are, in fact, themselves PwD's who took exception at various flat out attacks. What you're missing here is I wanted to discuss the term in question, and gee, I even said I was open to hearing why or why not various folk did or did not have a problem with it. Min doesn't, Katie does. So on, so forth. I said I would think about it, because you know, I DON'T want to offend a whole slew of people because I like a term. So I wanted to hear what other people, yep, non-white ones even, had to say about it.
And it's fucking grand you defended me off blog or whatever, I think we've all done that from time to time for eachother. Always nice to know how much you're hated, by the way...keeps the soul warm at night and all.
Be that as it may, I am allowed to question why or how or when or in who's eyes various words are offensive...learning experience and all...chances are, I won't use the phrase in blogging any more. When I am hanging out with Min or my family or whatever, I will. Ah yes, a compromise!
I just posted on music, wanna take a run at that one too?
RM: I don't think it's appropriate to bring up stuff that has happened on lists here. I'm no longer on said list either, but really: it's a list. Dramaz of various sorts have happened on it. We're not on it, ergo, none of our business.
Not to say anything one way or the other *about* the drama-fest you mentioned, which I was there for. Just... y'know, if it happened in private it should stay private. Don't name names, especially to insult someone.
It was my racist MOTHER, get it right. Also, fuck you, because you don't know what the hell you're talking about here, REALLY.
Well, the complainant obviously thought you were white and felt the need to educate you about the origins you're so familiar with. I find this much more telling than anything else. A human we meet online, whose face we have not yet seen is automatically assumed to be white And not only that, since this person is white he/she must necessarily also be completely oblivious to all things to do with people of colour.
Y'all should be offended that everyone will consider you white until told otherwise.
Me? I'm just blue.
/snerk
j.a.:
Well, in her defense, I look pretty dang white. But you SO have a point.
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