I’ve come to the conclusion that people like to see me twitch. Not even on film or anything, just in general. Apparently my twitch ridden snark is amusing. To some people anyway. Why else would they point me to places like this? I mean, come on…Favorite lines thus far: “To those enslaved by sexy, beaten by sexy, afraid because of sexy, hidden by sexy, appropriated by sexy, employed by sexy, abused by sexy,… my sincerest apologies. We are working on it.”
Now, I am down with saving those enslaved by sexy. Enslaved by anything is bad. We agree there. But as someone employed by sexy…well, um, no apology needed, but back the fuck off. I don’t want or need your saving. Don’t bother working on it. I mean, sure, as a Jew and all, we’re still waiting for the Messiah, but I’m pretty sure you’re not it.
And I’m not “bemused”, but I’d sure like to buy her/him a drink…but you know, bemused, “Check yourself. You’ve been warned.”
Hey, is that a threat?
Or how about this?
If you were going to make a movie about porn debates you’d need the following characters
1)Ex porn “writer”/ “producer” guy whose wife makes all the costumes
2)Free Speechin’ loon bat whose only contribution is a restating of the First Amendment (passed and ratified *before* slavery was abolished or women had the right to vote)
3)The stripper/porn actress/nipple clamp fetishsta who *somehow* managed to get healthcare and a 401K plan while gathering most of her clients off Craigslist
4) MyPornSmellsLikeRoses. Some people actually claim to have found and use the holy grail of the YayPornies’s position: pro-women porn! Feminist porn! Yes. (when writing this role remember this person does not see themselves as- necessarily-pro-porn. They too believe rape porn is “kinda icky” but not their beloved Annie Sprinkle collection.)
5) Stop-judging-you-*meanies*-whinebag. “Can’t everyone just get along? I thought we were supposed to be helping each other! If this is what feminism is about then I’m out!” (exit scene).
6) Radical Feminist.
Casting should be incredibly easy.
Kill off 1-5 in the first scene. We all like happy endings.
Well, I don’t have insurance or a 401k and never thought much of craigslist, and I am certainly avoidant of the RF kool-aid party…but, but is that a death threat? Oh, why, yes, yes, it’s satirical! Funny how when some people say shit like that, it’s satirical, and when others say it, it is totally hard founded literal truth of motivation towards actual homicide! Oh, and if someone, say, actually thinks of threatening me for pointing this out and commenting on it, well, as the old dude in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade said: "Choose wisely". I am not fucking around with actual, real threats.
And my favorite backs down in the face of an argument and truly vile shit said about other women cheerleader is there…imagine that? Oh wait, she’d never wave something as “sexy” as pom-poms.
Now, I’m gonna be a real asshole here for a minute, but yeah, I am know to be vile. Clue here: Women are dropping the feminist label like a rotting animal corpse for a reason, you know. Be it WoC dropping it because of white ladies (more on THAT later) or LTQ women because of assorted “purity of causes” bullshit, or kinky women, or ruthless porn-mongering mercenaries like myself, they are distancing themselves for a reason. Hey, maybe y’all want to be in a room echo-chambering yourselves planing the revolution and salvation for all women, but frankly, that sounds really creepy…and I know creepy when I hear/see/smell it. Free Clue Two: Sexy, the sex biz, sex in general? You’re never going to win…and even if you do, the people you’re going to hurt the most are the people you supposedly want to help. Hey, when both in reality and in popular fictionalized mass media people can get away with rape due to the “sexy songs, tv and porn made me do it” defense, who is really hurt there? Not the music, tv and porn industry. Who is actually responsible? Not the music, tv or porn industry. Because you know…it’s never, ever going to go away. Ever. And you might like the idea of a world with no legally made porn or sexy adverts or whatever else, but hey, I rather prefer the idea of legally made shit where people sign contracts to folks paying big bucks to see illegally made smut with no regulation, age verification, STD testing or whatever else in place. BDSM and whatever else? Also not ever going anywhere. Not all people like their sex the same way, and you can’t change that, and trying to do so…well, many would call that an unwanted imposition of your will upon other people. Or, as Belle has been known to say: “Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss”.
Heh, and sorry, but a lot of us will give up our “sexy” when you pry our cold, dead, fingers from around it.
And fear not, Brave Womyn, the “sex pozzies” are reading. I doubt we’re changing our minds, but we’re reading. Maybe smirking a little. I am anyway.
Oh, by the way, what do you think of this, or this, or this?
50 comments:
*Enslaved* by sexy? Oh, Mary! I am so tired of hyperbole.
You see creepy in the mirror every morning, mercenary.
"Hey, maybe y’all want to be in a room echo-chambering yourselves planning the revolution and salvation for all women, but frankly, that sounds really creepy"
You really want to call your "porn-mongering mercenaries like yourself" anything but creepy?
That's right it isn't. It is way more than "creepy". This would be the understating light definition for your "porn-mongering mercenary self".
You are in fact perpetuating what we "rotting animal corpse" rad feminists like to call:
Degrading, debasing, lowering, dehumanizing, demeaning, patriarchy-perpetuating, women-hating, harmful, violently- oppressive, offensive, repellent, and repugnant to name a slim few.
You said you don't agree with enslavement either, but what are you doing performing in the most basic foundational essence of the patriarch and women hating business?
You think this is un-slaving or "empowering?" Think again.
Via the IBTP website (that says it better than my dead animal corpse can at the moment due to bewilderment of stupidity):
"Porn isn’t transgressive; it’s de rigueur"- Same goes for sexy.
"Pictures of naked women empower nobody but the men who pimp’em out and the voyeurs who consume’em. A woman may elect to reap the benefits of her capitulation to her oppressor, and she can even call it “empowerment” when she does it, but that doesn’t mean she’s not full of shit, and it certainly doesn’t mean that it’s doing any other women the least bit of good." -(http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2007/06/08/pose-of-the-week/)
"the ability to titillate men is not a high moral purpose. Being sexually manipulative is not a high moral purpose."
(http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2007/06/08/pose-of-the-week/)
And as for your comment:
“Free Clue Two: Sexy, the sex biz, sex in general? You’re never going to win”
Maybe you should check out this article about China’s PROGRESSION (too bad you can’t kill me for using this word considering my animal corpse is already dead!) on the anti-pornography/pervert movement:
“China Shut Down 44,000 Pornography Sites in 2007”
http://www.switched.com/2008/01/23/china-shut-down-44-000-pornograpy-sites-in-2007/
And that’s just it, isn’t it? Ren is “creepy”. She’s “creepy” in that same way all people who other people, of any kind, don’t get. Ren does things that other people can’t imagine doing unless they were forced. She does them to other people. Her consent, their consent and their feelings on it don’t matter. Other people find it creepy. Ren gets paid for it, and that makes her a mercenary? Okay, I can even buy that. Creepy mercenary indeed.
Sure, I couldn’t do Ren’s job. I wouldn’t want to do Ren’s job. I wouldn’t like Ren’s job. Sure, she’s abrasive as gravel. But tell me this, who isn’t abrasive or creepy in some manner, and who working, in whatever industry, isn’t in some way mercenary? I hurt people for a living. I’m a tattoo artist and I pierce and brand people. Those things hurt. I’ve seen all kinds of naked human parts, and I tattoo them with a gun or shove metal needles in them or burn them. I get paid for it. They let me permanently mark their bodies, and pay me to do it. I charge a pretty hefty fee for this. I make them prove their age and make sure that they are sober and consent to it. It can be risky, people can get infections. My industry is also credited with the decline of western civilization, after all, it used to be that only “scum and sailors” got tattoos, now even “good girls” have them. Preppy upper crust college kids have them. Body modification and art has been normalized and mainstreamed. But, nevertheless, I scar people for a living, and it hurts, but they have consented to it, pay me for it, and even tip me after. I also deal with all kinds of assholes, male and female, and bodily fluids in my job. Oh, I also love my job, even if I too have bad days.
Am I any more or less creepy than Ren? Is what she does really any more damaging than what I do? Is she more of a scumbag vile mercenary creepy sociopath whatever than I am?
Is she? Or is it different because she’s fucking and I’m not, at least not for public consumption?
I’d love to hear an answer to that.
Fuck the revolution.
It's not coming, and it never gave anyone shit.
Anonymous:
"You really want to call your "porn-mongering mercenaries like yourself" anything but creepy?
That's right it isn't. It is way more than "creepy". This would be the understating light definition for your "porn-mongering mercenary self".
You are in fact perpetuating what we "rotting animal corpse" rad feminists like to call:
Degrading, debasing, lowering, dehumanizing, demeaning, patriarchy-perpetuating, women-hating, harmful, violently- oppressive, offensive, repellent, and repugnant to name a slim few."
Violent, Offensive, repellent & repugnant I will lay claim to with little or no hesitation. Even "creepy"- oh, please DO see Min's comment for more on creepy. However, as a woman (one of more than a few , actually) who has been degraded, debased, lowered, dehumanized, demeaned and faced a few attempts at opression at the hands of SOME radical feminists...consider me unimpressed with your dedication to Tribe Woman (all of them, women, that is).
"You said you don't agree with enslavement either, but what are you doing performing in the most basic foundational essence of the patriarch and women hating business?
You think this is un-slaving or "empowering?" Think again."
Earning a living in a job I enjoy and am well suited to, and I consider it to be a great way to be empaychecked. Also, I am big on getting people who want out of the business out, so try towing that party line elsewhere.
"Via the IBTP website (that says it better than my dead animal corpse can at the moment due to bewilderment of stupidity):..."
You know, I've read Twisty, but her high and mighty all-knowing unversial truth classist anti-trans supreme authority pronouncements get real old to me real quick. I don't believe in universal truths. Besides, I'm pretty sure I know more about my job and what it does or doesn't do, how it feels or doesn't feel, so on, so forth, than Twisty does. Same goes for a lot of other people as well.
"And as for your comment:
“Free Clue Two: Sexy, the sex biz, sex in general? You’re never going to win”
Maybe you should check out this article about China’s PROGRESSION (too bad you can’t kill me for using this word considering my animal corpse is already dead!) on the anti-pornography/pervert movement:
“China Shut Down 44,000 Pornography Sites in 2007”
http://www.switched.com/2008/01/23/china-shut-down-44-000-pornograpy-sites-in-2007/"
Heh, I knew it was just a matter of time. Glad to see SOME Rad Fems are so thrilled with China and their battle against porn...nevermind China's STERLING rep for human rights, womens rights, female infanticide, forced sterilization and abortion, torture, trafficking, treatment of political prisoners, and finding things suchs as "weird hairstyles" and men crying on television to be immoral. Nevermind all that, they are tough on porn and pervs! Woohoo! Psst, you know how many prostituted women, you know, the unwilling ones, are shipped around the world in cargo containers from where? Why yes, China. And making all this horrible porn and whatnot illegal...guess what type of women are going to be used in an illegal, undergrown porn industry...that's right...the trafficked, forced and enslaved ones, almost exclusively, because the sex biz isn't going anywhere. That in mind, you might want to be careful about how lightly you throw out words like "stupidity".
Please come back and continue to discuss, if you like.
XOXO-
The vile, violent, repulsive, offensive, and whatever the hell else mercenary.
anony: got anyone better to cite than the classist transphobe pile of bullshit known as twisty?
"empaychecked"
+2 to Ren. :)
Min, I love you. And Trin, yeah, I'm feeling that vibe, very much so.
Well Ren, for the record, I do think you're creepy, but no more creepy than I am, and certainly no more than anonymous commentors who pull the kind of shit this/these one(s) have.
You may be a creepy, violent pornographer, but at least you own your shit, and your Net ID.
I'm Spartacreep!
say it loud! I'm creepy and proud!
And I'm still creepy (read: kinky, "sex-positive", non-anti-porn, pro-Ren) after all these years. You'd think my abusive ex would have beat the creepy out of me. but no. I've been quite safe for many years, and still just can't say goodbye to the creepy.
what's WRONG with me? (handwring, eyeroll)
Well, AP, you run with a bad crowd.
"Pictures of naked women empower nobody but the men who pimp’em out and the voyeurs who consume’em."
Textbook classism. Some folks have the privilege to do work that's empowering beyond the empaycheck. For many, getting paid so one can pay bills and support loved ones and oneself is pretty powerful. Anon, the fact that you discount this says bucketloads.
I've always said the hard line anti-sexual objectification line was ultimately anti-sexual attraction. Pisaquaririse proves my point.
Oh, and this whole idea that "anti-sexy" isn't "anti-sex" is definitely splitting hairs. As if applying a blanket condemnation to things that turns on 99% of the rest of humanity could be anything but "anti-sex" in effect.
"Pictures of naked women empower nobody but the men who pimp’em out and the voyeurs who consume’em."
The thing is (or one of them at least), there is not only one way to oppress women. Around here it might be "you should be sexy and naked for men", in some other places it's "don't show anything and stay at home." And even here it's not just "wear as little as you can/do porn/whatever", it's everywhere and there are really many ways of "doing it wrong".
I'm not at all convinced that it's possible to find only one Right Way to fight oppression. It's deeper than just porn or whatever and if we somehow managed to get rid of porn or sexy, it would just be replaced with something else if the real reason for oppression wouldn't go away.
Besides, living in a world where people have to ignore pig parts of themselves is not very stable, I assume. (And I'm so not going to believe that those parts are just from brainwashing.)
(and I'm so not good at writing in English...)
Renegade Evolution-
“…consider me unimpressed with your dedication to Tribe Woman (all of them, women, that is).”
Unfortunately you missed my point of that statement, which was obviously not to impress you.
“Earning a living in a job I enjoy and am well suited to, and I consider it to be a great way to be empaychecked. Also, I am big on getting people who want out of the business out, so try towing that party line elsewhere.”
Well suited to? Not to be mean, but what is well suited for? Normally I would say these qualifications include genitalia and a breathing body, but I am pretty positive these aren’t even requirements anymore for your industry. –As for your “empaycheck” comment I already addressed this in my last post.
“You know, I've read Twisty, but her high and mighty all-knowing unversial truth classist anti-trans supreme authority pronouncements get real old to me real quick. I don't believe in universal truths. Besides, I'm pretty sure I know more about my job and what it does or doesn't do, how it feels or doesn't feel, so on, so forth, than Twisty does. Same goes for a lot of other people as well.”
^ I highly disagree that just being in a job makes you completely aware and understood in your actions. In fact in many ways I think it is alienating from the truth. Not saying Twisty would know the ins and out of your business, better than you (maybe), but she certainly has a stronger philosophical, ideological grasp.
“Heh, I knew it was just a matter of time. Glad to see SOME Rad Fems are so thrilled with China and their battle against porn...nevermind China's STERLING rep for human rights, womens rights, female infanticide, forced sterilization and abortion, torture, trafficking, treatment of political prisoners, and finding things suchs as "weird hairstyles" and men crying on television to be immoral. Nevermind all that, they are tough on porn and pervs! Woohoo! Psst, you know how many prostituted women, you know, the unwilling ones, are shipped around the world in cargo containers from where? Why yes, China. And making all this horrible porn and whatnot illegal...guess what type of women are going to be used in an illegal, undergrown porn industry...that's right...the trafficked, forced and enslaved ones, almost exclusively, because the sex biz isn't going anywhere. That in mind, you might want to be careful about how lightly you throw out words like "stupidity".”
^ I never said China was perfect, and I will agree with your points on the atrocities that are going on in China. HOWEVER, they are stepping across the threshold into the cesspool, many others frightened of the superego and the sex trade/porn industry are too afraid and apathetic to step into. Sex trafficking is notably obvious as another horrific problem- WORLDWIDE- but do you know where 90% of those sex slaves from China are getting shipped to?
AMERICA.
PORN-INFUSED Americans.
SWEET little oppressors of the universe.
Whoa that is really hurtful being referred to as stupid, by someone holding their water gun up to my machete.
Min-
“Sure, I couldn’t do Ren’s job. I wouldn’t want to do Ren’s job. I wouldn’t like Ren’s job. Sure, she’s abrasive as gravel. But tell me this, who isn’t abrasive or creepy in some manner, and who working, in whatever industry, isn’t in some way mercenary? I hurt people for a living. I’m a tattoo artist and I pierce and brand people. Those things hurt. I’ve seen all kinds of naked human parts, and I tattoo them with a gun or shove metal needles in them or burn them. I get paid for it. They let me permanently mark their bodies, and pay me to do it. I charge a pretty hefty fee for this. I make them prove their age and make sure that they are sober and consent to it. It can be risky, people can get infections. My industry is also credited with the decline of western civilization, after all, it used to be that only “scum and sailors” got tattoos, now even “good girls” have them. Preppy upper crust college kids have them. Body modification and art has been normalized and mainstreamed. But, nevertheless, I scar people for a living, and it hurts, but they have consented to it, pay me for it, and even tip me after. I also deal with all kinds of assholes, male and female, and bodily fluids in my job. Oh, I also love my job, even if I too have bad days.”
Was my post in any way non-abrasive?
I wasn’t criticizing the word mercenary by the way, but the words associated with this label.
The creepy reference I was making was her connection of creepy and these “dead corpse” rad feminists in their “echo-chamber room.”
PS- I think the word "renegade" would want to vomit on you if it ever met you.
This word represents a more rebellion against the masses, not subjection.
Official request to change your nickname
Iamcuriousblue said...
“Oh, and this whole idea that "anti-sexy" isn't "anti-sex" is definitely splitting hairs. As if applying a blanket condemnation to things that turns on 99% of the rest of humanity could be anything but "anti-sex" in effect.”
Dear Iamcuriousblue,
Just because you cannot decipher the difference between a noun and adjective is not Pisaquaririse’s fault.
Trinity said...
anony: got anyone better to cite than the classist transphobe pile of bullshit known as twisty?
If I wanted to cite a “pile of bullshit” I would have used you.
Octogalore said...
“Textbook classism. Some folks have the privilege to do work that's empowering beyond the empaycheck. For many, getting paid so one can pay bills and support loved ones and oneself is pretty powerful. Anon, the fact that you discount this says bucketloads.”
For starters, “bucket loads”* is two words, so this other “word” you are using I don’t understand. Secondly, I never said anything about the point you are bringing up. I have thorough research on the porn industry and realize many are forced to make a living in this industry, my words do not speak to these individuals, only the deepest sympathies go out to them. However for those that willingly go into this business, I have already said my peace to you.
Wait, wait, someone who either runs or endorses a site entitled "Buried Alive" is calling someone -else- creepy?
I tried to read some of that shit, and my eyes just kept crossing. It was sort of like, i dunno, Vogons holding an epistological crit class on poetry, or something. Seriously, if you -really really- don't care about sex or sexy or whatever the distinction is, why even bring it up at all?...
and yeah, that other post you cite is just...charming!
Clue here: Women are dropping the feminist label like a rotting animal corpse for a reason, you know. Be it WoC dropping it because of white ladies (more on THAT later) or LTQ women because of assorted “purity of causes” bullshit, or kinky women, or ruthless porn-mongering mercenaries like myself, they are distancing themselves for a reason.
for that matter, last I checked, some of the hardcore cultural wimminist types seem to want to distance themselves from the label as well, now (not pure enough or summat i guess).
so at this point: if -no one- wants the label "feminist" anymore. Could we sell it on eBay or something, do we think?...
also, speaking of "creepy"--is there some particular reason we need to know that the author has a "poor shriveled clitoris?" I mean--what?
You know, I am finding it harder and harder to even read, let alone take seriously anyone who isn't even willing to hide behind some sort of fake pseudonym. Explain to me again why we even let them post?
A shame... there were a few posts there I wanted to comment on. After the reception AP got, though, I suspect I'd be unwelcome by virtue of association, regardless of what I actually had to say.
"China Shut Down 44,000 Pornography Sites in 2007”
Very impressive statistic, anonymous, but here's the things my mathematical, statistician-ish brain ponders:
How many porn sites opened up to replace them? How many porn sites were there to start with?
Remember, the Judeo-Christian tradition has been trying to shut down the sex industry for some 3,000 years and not for any of the reasons you want them to, they've been doing it for patriarchy-endorsed reasons. And at every turn they have failed. What makes you think you can do it when you're fighting against the patriarchy? It's not like the Chinese have any interest in your reasons, they're doing it for their own patriarchy-endorsed reasons, too.
So long as there are some reasonably well-off people out there who desire sex but have yet to find a consensual partner into the same types of sex as themselves, and so long as there are people out there who are happy with earning a living from providing sexual services, then the basic law of supply and demand insists that there will be a sex industry.
The only way to end that situation is to control with absolute and utter rigidity, the sexual desires of every human being on this planet. Anonymous, the upshot of what you appear to say, and what Pisaquaririse appears to say, is that "you can have sex if and only if you don't enjoy it".
Can you figure out where I first encountered that line of reasoning?
That's right: the novel, "1984". It was "Big Brother"s policy on sex. To be honest, I don't see any liberation or freedom for women in that setting either.
Question:- Suppose a world where only men's sexual desire is enslaved in the manner you appear to desire, but women still feel sexual: would a lesbian who has a high sex-drive but doesn't have a partner, who chooses to buy sex - in the form of porn, prostitute or stripper - still be degrading, debasing, lowering, dehumanizing, demeaning etc?
Anonymous:
Request for me to change my nickname? Denied. I mean, you don't even have the spine to use a name, after all. Oh, and around these parts, puke costs extra. As for the water gun machete comment, last time I checked, BA was the official machete gal around here, and I have a glock. Truth is, your weapon comment is fucking absurd, as you are too chicken shit to even sign in with a name, and, oh, psst, in case you haven't noticed? Yeah, porn is winning.
As for "well suited to", well yes, genitals and breathing help. Corpses are not used in legally made pornography. A certain mindset that does not confuse sex with intimacy is also helpful, and that is what I was refering too. A certain body type and curious nature also help.
Also, I suggest you read more carefully...I never called rad fems rotting animal corpses. I said that many women are dropping the FEMINIST LABEL like a rotting animal corpse. There is a huge difference between what I said and what you are saying I said (typical, and I remain unsurprised).
And I'd like PROOF that 90% of those trafficked women come into the porn-saturated US as sex slaves, please, as much of the research I've seen suggests that number is incorrect.
But then again, some folk really DO just have a fascination with 90% period.
Anon -- sweetheart, criticizing me for not putting bucketloads into two words and then confusing peace and piece is somewhat hypocritical, no? Please, don't waste time trying to take me on grammatically or linguistically.
Second, do you not get that there may be overlap or even proportionality between "voluntary" participation and inability to make bill payments doing other work? It's not all neat and clean such that you can easily separate out intent that way. I used to strip, and knew people who weren't coerced to do so, and could have done other work, but not without a significant struggle. It's typical of someone with no direct experience combined with overwhelming hubris to indulge in such oversimplicfication.
Interesting, many other ways of oppression and my "paycheck," sound almost synonymous. "Separating intimacy from sex," this comment fills me with sympathy. How can you separate the two? Being able to separate them is most likely associated with some deep scar in your unconscious psyche. From what i've read it seems Anon is intellectual radiation to your current crisis in subjectivity. Anon is holding a nuclear missile to your toothpick asking "Do we have a problem?"
SM: Yawn. Stick your sympathy, I'd rather not have it, thanks. Yet another typical "oh, well, you do something I way I don't and don't understand so you MUST be damaged" line of crap. Bored now. So very overdone, really. Anony is a coward who seems to have problems with actually reading what I said and sketchy statistics and an amusingly ironic line about supporting China's stance on porn, even though they do all those other horrible things, yet is over here whining about me supporting porn because it's so damaging. Amusing, really.
Intellectual radiation? Smirk. No, not at all.
And yeah, we do have a problem here.
Also, I suggest you read more carefully...I never called rad fems rotting animal corpses. I said that many women are dropping the FEMINIST LABEL like a rotting animal corpse. There is a huge difference between what I said and what you are saying I said (typical, and I remain unsurprised).
Yup.
“Oh, and this whole idea that "anti-sexy" isn't "anti-sex" is definitely splitting hairs. As if applying a blanket condemnation to things that turns on 99% of the rest of humanity could be anything but "anti-sex" in effect.”
Dear Iamcuriousblue,
Just because you cannot decipher the difference between a noun and adjective is not Pisaquaririse’s fault.
"I don't agree with sleep that relies on tired."
"I don't agree with hunger that relies on hungry."
"I don't agree with happiness that relies on happy."
Or, no, of course, of course: "hunger" is fine, that's -natural-, just don't do anything to stimulate -appetite-. --No, no, I know! Don't tell me! I know this one! I have rectal divination! A taco is not a human being! Therefore anything that deliberately seeks to incite the gonadal appetites, as opposed to the food-based ones.
Because wanting to -fuck- someone is totally the same as wanting to OWN them or even EAT them, it happens once and then the other person is gone and NO MORE, NOM NOM, it's like the "gaze" as well as the camera steals bits of your soul no RLY SRSLY...
that's a fun little Revolution you've got going there. I'd join, but oo, have a root canal appointment, and then I have to straighten out my sock drawer. You know how it is.
oh, and I loved the article delineating the difference between the author and fundamentalist Christians, that was choice.
"See, when -I- obsess over something I'm supposedly bored and repulsed
by, I REALLY MEAN that I'm REPULSED, and -they don't.-"
...boy, that's as attractive a come on as -I've- ever seen. I can't
imagine why the potential Revolutionaries aren't flocking to the banner. "Oh, thank
goodness you've arrived."
For some reason I just can't get that Justin Timberlake song out of my head ... "I'm bringing Creepy back..."
Since there was never any misogyny or patriarchy before porn was available to the masses, it makes perfect sense to me that if we just get rid of porn and sex work and sexy then all will be right with the world.
Women would be so much better off if those other damned women would just stop screwing it up for the rest of us!
karly: that pretty much sums it up.
Hey, just something I want to point out...do we really need to give up the label 'feminist' when we can make our OWN feminism?
And also, there are some feminists out there that have really changed things for women (I'm thinking here about the vote, law, etc).
Feminism can be inclusive and it is important to remember that. Not all of us agree with each other but we try to get on.
I would say that, well, mainstream porn is not representative of women's sexuality and panders to men, but I would hesitate to say that this applies to everyone.
I find consensus with you when I believe that porn needs to promote safe sex, and that younger boys and girls shouldn't watch it til they reach a responsible age (18? 21? whatever) because it will give them ideas about safe sex etc.
It will also most likely stop them from exploring sexuality in their own way without the influence of porn. Better sex education, separating male and female sexuality would be good too (aka, tell women what the clitoris is!). I think that porn needs to address these issues if it is ever going to be a positive thing.
Just my two pence (or cents, as you say!).
Hey Liz:
Well, I see absolutely what you're saying, but I can't be that optomisic at this point. I tried, it get real futile real quick. I also realize the type of things I object to out of some feminists is not the attitude of all, and that even people with different opinions can often discuss things or find some common ground- but sometimes, no, not so much at all.
Liz: eh, that's pretty much what I do, but I've always figured what's in a name, anyway.
I had to go and look again.
yeah. Look, I'm sorry pisquawhosis is feeling frustrated, but I'm sure it's entirely mutual. Apparently we really don't speak the same language. Or, yeah, I get the framework she's coming from. I just don't -agree- with it. Lots of people don't. Apparently that's not acceptable, or doesn't compute, or something.
What they're apparently calling "sexy" is...to me, a complex and everything-but-the-kitchen-sink mix of abuse, institutionalized sexism, capitalism (hello?) and gosh somewhere in there actual desire, -womens'- desires included, yes, which is not actually so easily reduced to a "natural" state: humans are COMPLICATED, goddamit. No, it's not always warm and fuzzy and safe and needs to be fucking -discreet- (again with the heterosexism, nice). It can be any -number- of things, sexuality. Sexy. Eros. What you will.
I'm sorry if some people are apparently so disgusted/hurt/confounded by it that they want to do away with it altogether, and y'know, by all means, follow your bliss, or lack thereof ("Buried Alive," sounds like a swell time really). The problem, once a fucking gain, is assuming that everyone in the damn world is just like them -really- and would see the Truth if only they weren't so blinded by False Consciousness or whatever the fuck.
After about twelve thousand attempts to make the connect with some of these people, ranging from polite to sledgehammer, I've absolutely no intention of trying again. good on Sabrina and a few others for taking the plunge, but you know...it's not really worth it, alas.
All I can say at this point is: great, you have the Answer for true freedom and happiness. Well, show, don't tell. Because right now, what I'm seeing isn't a group of enlightened, evolved human beings who've somehow attained True Love (isn't this where we're going, with all this?) What I see is a bunch of deeply angry and confused and hurt and yes, often -hateful- people who are trying to work their shit out, and as far as that goes I'm more than happy to leave them to it. The problem comes when they try to drag the rest of us into it as well. They think they're the ones being put upon and pressured and have no power to do any such of their own, the entire Patriarchy of course has no agenda to repress or deny "sexy," of course. Just them. Masturbating to waterfalls, blissfully ignorant of the work Betty Dodson and all those other dreaded "sex pozzes" have done with precisely that, self-love first. Convinced they have the Truth, and that's so much better than fucking, or desiring, or just for fuckssake dressing up and having a laugh...It's all too dangerous.
And of course, it's always, always, always, ALWAYS about the fucking men. It's not they who can't imagine sexuality not being about men, it's the rest of us. Of course.
Sad.
Hey Belle, I know, I just wondered about how people were distancing themselves from the label 'feminist'. Because it can be a positive thing.
I don't know, I kind of think it's important to be somewhere in the middle - recognising that choice is important, that you can't put people into neat little categories.
Women and men are complex, and sexuality is even more complex. 'Sexy' is just a word, afterall.
I think maybe the problem is 'repression' - some aspects of our culture repress women's sexuality.
I mean, it was years before I learnt about my clitoris..and I'm only 23! I didn't hear about it properly til my very last years of school (A-Levels before Uni), and that was within my relationship with my (now) partner.
I would very much have liked to know before that because I think many young women would really benefit from good education about our bodies and their possibilities.
The problem, to me, anyway, seems to be that our media and stuff promotes sex but at the same time there isn't that much education for women. It all seems to be a bombardment of heterosex, male-centric stuff.
Yes, there are things out there that educate women, but what I see everyday is a promotion of male desire, rather than female desire. Perhaps I'm wrong, it's just seemed that way for me, being a young woman growing up in a western society.
And I understand this anger, I really do. I don't understand the 'false-consciousness' thing because I think many women make conscious choices to, for example, be an actress in porn, and if that makes them happy, then that's fine.
It doesn't mean that it will be an informed choice, always, but often it is. I think my concern as a feminist is to make sure that they are safe, and legally represented and that they are happy.
Which is what lots of you have been saying. It doesn't mean that I don't think mainstream porn is a very limited and often harmful representation of (men's and women's) sexuality though!
And I agree that sexuality is a complex thing, and as a feminist I do acknowledge that. But I also think, as a feminist, that its important to criticise those aspects of culture and society that marginalises women's sexuality and sexual expression. I've only recently heard of Betty Dodson (oh my god I hear you say!) because I just read the Vagina Monologues and saw a TV programme with her showing women how to have orgasms! And I think what she does is pretty fantastic.
It never ceases to annoy me how women are only to be allowed some choices (politically proper choices, vetted by women who have nothing in common with those they malign) in order to be considered valid people with the right to their own agency.
Also, we're all mercenaries. If you want to mark some women out for what you believe they've done to reinforce the patriarchy, you should probably own what you've done - and probably still do - to reinforce the patriarchy. Or, as Twisty has said, "we all make compromises to live under patriarchy." I mean, since we're quoting her and all.
What I find creepy is all this obsession about what people find arousing, and a desire to control what arouses people. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees the irony of wanting to replace one form of oppression (assuming sexy is legitimately 100% across the board oppression, which I will argue against) with another (dictating how people get aroused is legitimiately 100% across the board oppression assuming it could be enforced - Orwell called this "thoughtcrime").
lisa; yep, some women are more equal than others.
if that's enlightenment, leave the lights off, thanks.
Liz, I am with you in that the combination of hypersexualized advertising and so on with a dismal lack of real education about how bodies and relationships actually -work- is really bad, and quite possibly -that- is even worse than it was in my day (cough, wheeze).
I guess for me, I hear you wrt the feminist thing: the "sex pos" label though gets an equally bad rap, and again, I often wonder where the distancing comes from when my own experience of what that actually means has been so different, apparently from some other peoples'.
Also, for me, I am particularly driven around the bend by the idea that we're all pressured to be so sexual, because this is not my experience at all. Partly this is a generational thing, but mostly it's: my own stuff is a lot more about -not- being or feeling allowed to be sexual, and specifically, towards other women, in a homophobic as well as sex-negative culture. The stuff about women being somehow outside of male-dominated sexuality, I dunno, purer, uncontaminated, whatever the implications are, and all these no-no-no's, coming from other people calling themselves feminists, even lesbians, just drives. me. crazy.
Because it feels -so- familiar, and not in a good way. There's nothing -wrong- with sexy, goddamit; there's nothing -wrong- with superficial, physical desire for another damn human being; believe me, I spent my entire fucking adolescence and part of my early adulthood believing that I was -wrong- to even think such things. And what would they do if they knew. Yeah, I get it: the theorizin' of whatever school of feminism this is, it's not about homophobia, no no no; bodies are great, same-sex sex is great, just don't -objectify.-
And for me it's like: this means nothing. Nothing. It feels exactly the damn same if the result is the same: a lot of scorn, a lot of shutting down, a lot of frankly fucking arbitrary and completely unnecessary self-imposed -rules- that, at the end of the day? Do no, in fact, end up leading to greater intimacy. It's -really- hard to attain genuine intimacy when your head is that frigging occupied by how -terrible- this or that is, how you need to -purge- yourself of this or that.
And how can you accept another person enough to be intimate with hir when you're so harsh on yourself? It just...doesn't work that way, ime. You can't be self-loving and still be so censorious of all the -bad-, wherever it supposedly comes from, that needs to be gotten rid of before you can even begin to be okay.
You can't, to be blunter, allow yourself to fully let go even with masturbation if your focus is on, rather than "okay, I'm just going to enjoy my body now and nothing else matters," "uh oh, here come those thoughts again."
The only way past cops in the head is to accept that they're there and get on with it. Fight them, and you're just creating more cops. That's...all I can say about that.
And I mean, I -get- that other people have an entirely different experience of sexuality, no doubt far more traumatic than mine, and need to find a way clear of -all- of it in some way, maybe, and that's -fine.- But it's -not- my journey and it's -not- everyone else's in the entire world, and I bristle at the implication, which I do get from missives like psiquawhosis', that this is now not only someone's particular path to healing but the One True Way, -politically- no less. No.
As for the whole "it's all about the men!" thing that keeps popping blithely out of straight radfems' mouths and fingers, must...control...fist...of death...
and, what Lisa said.
And no, wrt "thoughtcrime," (now addressing pisquaquari or whomever supports that sort of thing) "we're not telling you what to do!" doesn't cut it. (Yes, I have been in this -exact- argument, many, many times. Many). It's -worse- when you don't explicitly say "you must not do thus and so." Of course we all know you can't reach through the monitor and -force- us to hand over our floggers or phallic vibrators (only when you pry them from our cold, dead, sticky fingers), and frankly it's insulting to even talk as though we thought you -did- have that power. It's a red herring, and it also serves to implicitly give you more weight than you actually have.
No; instead, you play these little manipulative semantic games. You position yourself as having the Truth without actually owning that that's what you're doing, same as any other fundamentalist (it's not a -belief-, it's not a -personal- truth, it's just -how things are-). Of course you're frustrated; -people are gonna balk at this.- If it's either your way or the highway, -most- people are gonna take the highway. -Healthy- people, okay, are gonna take the highway. Even if in some ways they might actually -agree- with some of what you're saying.
Yes, there are things out there that educate women, but what I see everyday is a promotion of male desire, rather than female desire.
I agree with this to a large degree. (and never even mind that what I see is -straight- desire, even more so).
Nonetheless, what -doesn't- help ime is a supposed ally going, when a woman and/or queer person finally gets to the point where she can go, "say! x really turns me on!" something along the lines of, "You wouldn't be turned on by such things if you weren't brainwashed by the Patriarchy, you poor deluded slob. Have you read ____? Have you EXAMINED your desires lately? What do you mean, you've done nothing but? You can't have done or you would've come to the same conclusions we have, and at minimum you'd be falling all over yourself apologizing for your hopeless enmeshment in the Patriarchy and your selfish, selfish orgasms. Of -course- you should be sexually free; we -all- should. You're just Doing It Wrong."
...so, yeah, this would be where the "positive" comes in: one puts one's emphasis on getting what one -does- want to see out there rather than on condemning the stuff one doesn't.
Also, for me, I am particularly driven around the bend by the idea that we're all pressured to be so sexual, because this is not my experience at all. Partly this is a generational thing, but mostly it's: my own stuff is a lot more about -not- being or feeling allowed to be sexual, and specifically, towards other women, in a homophobic as well as sex-negative culture. The stuff about women being somehow outside of male-dominated sexuality, I dunno, purer, uncontaminated, whatever the implications are, and all these no-no-no's, coming from other people calling themselves feminists, even lesbians, just drives. me. crazy.
And from a completely different perspective, I was never pressured to be sexual.
Had I been actually sexual in my own right, I would have been less useful as a target for sexual harassment. The pressure was a constant drive to repress my sexuality, lose contact with my desires, become an empty shell into which casual abusers could dump their fantasies. No selfness of my own.
And some people might parse that as 'pressure to be sexual', I suppose, though the concept blows my mind; 'being sexual' is so obviously not being a blank slate upon which other people's sex is written, and it was the chalkboard role that was shoved at me.
I was never pressured to be sexual.
yeah, me neither. the pressure went exactly 180 degrees in the other direction.
as an adolescent -
"stop being sexual! don't you know that's dangerous?"
and then, as a young adult -
"stop being sexual that way! don't you know that's sick?"
the disapproving voices were more discouraging than the approving voices were encouraging.
Nonetheless, what -doesn't- help ime is a supposed ally going, when a woman and/or queer person finally gets to the point where she can go, "say! x really turns me on!" something along the lines of, "You wouldn't be turned on by such things if you weren't brainwashed by the Patriarchy, you poor deluded slob. Have you read ____? Have you EXAMINED your desires lately? What do you mean, you've done nothing but? You can't have done or you would've come to the same conclusions we have, and at minimum you'd be falling all over yourself apologizing for your hopeless enmeshment in the Patriarchy and your selfish, selfish orgasms. Of -course- you should be sexually free; we -all- should. You're just Doing It Wrong."
Belle for the win.
and I know that a lot of that is interpretation, inference, between-the-lines-ness - but I can't help getting that impression too, even after correcting for the fact that I feel like it's totally true that what passes for "sexy" in media is an idealized, homogenized, least-common-denominatored two-dimensional flat representation of what Big Advertising (if you will) thinks straight white guys find "sexy".
YES, everything that Belle said. What is it with these people that they think everyone's the same, that if we just thought about things we'd all come to the same conclusions? What world is that where people are so similar, and please can I never go there? These people ought to get out more, that's for sure.
What I was told when I was growing up was basically, that I wasn't *good enough* to be sexual. I wasn't allowed. I wasn't worthy. I was the weird ugly nerdy girl and the mere thought of me even *having* sexuality was disgusting and laughable.
So yeah. For me? Owning my sexuality and doing the things others told me I wasn't allowed to do is damn empowering.
Its always interesting to see things from a different perspective. I suppose my main problem is with the hiding of female desire in it's OWN right in mainstream media. Although, having said that, sometimes I wonder *what* women's sexuality is - and that seems quite odd to me, that maybe women's sexuality is so caught up with male sexuality that it's difficult to extricate it from that.
That's not to say that sure, if something turns someone on then so be it. If a woman has come to the conclusion that they really enjoy something then that's all great, really. I just have a major problem with repressive aspects of culture, where you must either be hypersexual or there must be something *wrong* with you if you don't want to have sex very often or you're just not that interested in it.
The medicalisation of lack of sexual feeling, for example, is something I feel uneasy about. There are lots of issues around sexuality and sexual expression that need to be changed - like you said, Belle, why is it unacceptable to express desire for women (as well as men)? Why does everyone seem to try and repress teen sexuality when it is the time that most people experience their sexuality? I get the feeling that it has a lot to do with religious perspectives on 'sin' and ideas/ideals about bodies. That corporeal bodies are somehow 'dirty' and that we have to deny our worldly existence or something.
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