Friday, February 15, 2008

Well, she did ask...

But I seriously doubt she actually wants me, or anyone, to answer this there....so then...

First off, no one has the creds, despite what they think, to declare who is a feminist and who is not. I could personally care less if people call themselves a feminist, a FM feminist, a real feminist, a pro-porn feminist, or the Grande Empress of South Beach. I am the happy exile of expatria, and frankly, I couldn’t give a flying fuck through a donut as to who says whom and who are not “real feminists”. That game is never going to end, and the prizes suck.

But I will address a few things:

One: those who call themselves (or, in often cases are labeled, erroneously, as pro-porn) are not often, in fact, pro-porn. Sometimes they actually dislike the majority of, if not all, porn, if not in act, in context. However, they are hesitant to believe the slanted research of anti-porn/sex work advocates and more keen to the idea of the autonomy of some women, and the rationale behind their choices to do any kind of sex work. They also recognize that yes, there is porn out there that is geared towards women and far more woman friendly than much of mainstream porn is, and lend an encouraging voice to the women who are making such…well…erotica- as the term porn is so tainted anyway. Pornography, of course, coming from the Greek and meaning “Writings about Whores (speculated often to mean those coming from the lower classes). In which case, shit, if I ever need a new blog title, I might just call this dive “pornography"-

Anyway, these supposed pro-porn feminists are not always the label they are slapped with, and the assumption that they (like a certain jack-booted mercenary who will remain nameless) are right in line and behind supporting the multi-million dollar het male oriented and appealing mainstream/gonzo/California porn juggernaut is often, by leaps, bounds, and light-years, utterly overused and incorrect. Many of these women have huge problems with, even hate, mainstream porn as it stands. However, they do recognize that it is not going away any time soon, and the first and foremost concern in such cases is getting the unwilling out, seeing to workplace safety, and why yes, listening to the women who say “I choose to do this” without immediately assuming each and every woman who says such is a junkie victim too damaged to ever render a decision about her own choice of employment….

And that is going to lead us right here: What is the plan, anyway? You know, a lot of us are taking hits for saying “The sex industry? It’s not going anywhere, so let’s work for harm reduction and getting those who want out the help they need, and leave those who want in alone…” So yeah…what is the Amazing, Super Secret Plan to Rid the World of the Sex Industry? We’re dying (figuratively and literally) to know. In the mean time, what with all the talk of not allowing it to be normalized, without ever accepting it as work, without ever giving sex workers any sort of legal status and voice…well, women are being abused, raped, killed, dehumanized, and marginalized. So I ask, in the quest to end the sex industry, are you willing to sacrifice the women working in it here and now to reach that goal…if it is even attainable? That is a question I’d really like to have answered, yet I suspect, such an answer will never come. My answer to that is obvious. No. I’m not. Especially when “the Plan” is never revealed, hence my support of harm reduction, programs for those who want out, aid, workplace safety, and why yes, decriminalization.

And the tactics of the people you take to heart? Wow. Let’s see…violation of federal law 2257, use of stolen research with no credit given, funding from the government, Universities, Private Anti-Porn groups, alliance with Religious Right Organizations & Bush, opposition to AIM, harassment of porn performers at their own events, censorship of and refusal to give equal time to opponents when demanding it themselves, use of porn performers images without their consent (and profiting from such), and the use of their words out of context and without permission. (which yes, I did once to prove a point, using images already used on anti-porn blogs, which of course, was then turned around on me in order to ignore the fucking issue.)

And let's not forget assumption and shock tactics.

Hey, why wouldn’t anyone be right on board with that?

And by the way? We know a not monolith when we see it. The sex industry? So not a monolith.

And yep, I am biased. I am a woman whom has chosen, of my own free will, to make my living in the sex biz…without having been raped, sexually abused, beat up by a man or a junkie. Please, do not attempt to save me from myself! I freakin’ cheer every time I hear of some sort of normalization, the real deal, and not the Hollywood drama y’all seem to take as such, because then it means in some legal sense, well hell, we almost get to be treated like humans! And until I hear this grand plan, that’s what I’m concerned with. That’s where my loyalty, money, and voice go. I will stand with those working to help sexworkers, in the here and now, rather than pretend that the abolitionist plan will not have scores and scores of victims, won’t lead to more cases like this, won’t become Big Sister is ruling my body rather than Big Brother. I am all for making a difference, right now. Choice and right of Domain over ones body goes beyond abortion after all.

And if being a “real feminist” means ignoring all that in order to move forward with “the plan”? Well then I thank god, goddess, and all the little deities that I am not a real feminist. I’ll stick to being a sex worker. Or whore. Or anything but your overused, patronizing term of prostituted woman. In some cases that fits, but damn if the size isn’t wrong for a lot of us yet you keep trying to force us in!

As for empowerment? Please, it’s been done to death. Nah, the sex biz is no bastion of empowerment for tribe woman, but funny, it doesn’t have to be.

“Tell me, pro-pornstitution "feminists", do you seriously think this is feminism what you're doing? Real feminism?”

You asked, so I answered. So now, I ask, do you think what you’re doing is real work to save the women actually working in the sex biz (whether they want it or not), or putting faith in a plan (?) and “real feminists” for a time that may never come…damn the feelings, bodies and choices of the sex workers/whores/prostituted women you leave in your wake?

Riddle me that!

28 comments:

thene said...

*raises hand* Pro-porny who hates porn and never watches it, right here.

They also recognize that yes, there is porn out there that is geared towards women and far more woman friendly than much of mainstream porn is, and lend an encouraging voice to the women who are making such…well…erotica- as the term porn is so tainted anyway.

That. More than recognising that, it's about saying and I want more of that kthnx, until it's as big as the other stuff.


From the post you linked:

"The first failure of pro-pornstitution "feminism" is that it totally capitulates to patriarchy. [...] Many women are socially trained to conform to cultural instruments of sexual brainwashing"

-going along with the long-standing hate that our dear Christian patriarchs have for sex workers *is* capitulating to patriarchy and it is sexual brainwashing.

"Women are commonly trained to please men in this culture. Thus, it is no wonder that among women who are interested in feminism, some will choose a type of 'feminism' that doesn't bother men or does not look like a real threat to men, because these women want to be appreciated by men in what they do."

Yeah, just like that. The sex industry is liek 95% geared towards men and what they like to watch and do, so wasting this many black pixels on describing in detail how awful it is, while all the while there is no plan and the industry is expanding all the time, is hardly 'threatening to men'. It's more like putting them in the middle of your feminism and showing them that your life still revolves around them, really.

belledame222 said...

Supporting women regardless of whether or not I "approve" of their "choices." Not trying to police other peoples' most intimate selves. Not putting -my- ideas of how things -should- be over what actually -is.- Yes, I call that feminist. More important, I call it human. Because when it comes right down to it, the actual people are more important than whether or not some I belong to the right -church.-

chani said...

No one should be restricted from any activity that is consensual. Whether that is making a choice in one's lifestyle, employment, education, relationship, health care, or anything else. Period.

Anyone who says otherwise is walking a short, fine line to totalitarianism. Anyone who truly supports equality for women would focus on helping those who are in situations against their will and leaving everyone else alone. Anything else is smoke and mirrors, fancy words and empty arguments.

I'd really like to know what MH and all the other 'real feminists' do, on a daily basis, to help women/people who actually want and need help? And I don't mean endless rants on the internet or closed lectures and conferences with people who agree with them either. I mean real, actual help. The hard stuff. Are they creating educational and business opportunities for impoverished women so they are empowered with options? Are they working to enact legislation to end the abuse of women who are involved in prostitution and pornography? Do they volunteer at women's shelters, visit women in rehab, travel around the world educating and rehabilitating? Do they help create internet security to keep predators from children and rescue young girls from slavery?

I may not like most porn, I certainly wouldn't make that choice for myself or my family. But I'll be damned if I support taking away the rights of individuals to make their own choices, especially when there are people who really do need help. Or is it just too hard to help all those other people? They're not easy enough targets? Too much work? Not worth helping? It's better instead to attack people who are perfectly capable of, and do, make their own decisions for them selves?

Sheesh. What a waste of time and energy when, frankly, there really is so much to be done.

And who cares what you call yourselves? Are women so stereotypically cliquish that we can't work together to focus on ending real suffering in the world? Seems to me that's what R is trying to do. Help those in need while protecting her right to make her own choices. And I totally support that. Controlling the actions of everyone in the hopes that maybe that will eradicate the real, underlying problems? Not so much.

Also, can someone please explain to me what, exactly, is wrong with being sexy? No one said sexy had to be defined by anyone other than by me, so I'm not entirely sure how I'm bowing to the patriarchy by enjoying turning on my husband. Or how he is bowing to the...???...by doing the same for me. I'm just not real clear on that one.

Renegade Evolution said...

Heh. Awww, come on Chani, you're duped, just like me. Guess that's why we can actually deal with and accept eachother both here and in meatspace!

And Damn Mr. C for being sexy and turning you on!

Outis said...

I was going to leave a comment on Ms. Hays website, until I read her sidebar warning. I can only hope that she is well rested when she wakes up from her dream state. I skimmed through all of her posts on the first page. For the life of me, I cannot fathom how anyone can go through life interacting with various individuals and come to the conclusion that all (fill in the blank here) are exactly the same.

I second chani's question. Are people like MH doing any outreach? So far I have not seen any evidence of this.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

This was the thing that made it blatantly obvious what the only human position available to me was (which, fortunately, did not require me to change my beliefs so much as enrich them).

So long as a whore is subhuman, abuseable, ignorable, discardable, women can be kept in line by the threat of converting them into whores. That's what I see as the essential dividing line, the essential -- if the feminists will forgive an outsider making the comment -- feminist issue here.

One can't fix that problem by abolishing whoredom, even if there were a magic wand that made it possible to do so. That still means that the category is forbidden, and anyone who crosses into it becomes an unperson, a nonentity.

The only thing that can touch that threat, that can unravel it and undo it and make it something without teeth, is normalisation, is treating sex work like work, making sure that its abuses are controllable (which cannot be done under a prohibition standpoint, to send a postcard from Obviousville here), to treat sex workers like people.

And that's without getting into the place I was beforehand, that people should have access to choice -- both to choose their employment and to get the hell out of situations that they don't want to be in. Which is another bloody obvious human thing.

I mean, I've run into enough bloody paternalism about what I should and should not be "allowed" to do from people of all kinds of different political affiliations to be heartily sick of it; my own Bad Woman experiences have burned me out on a lot of things. I cannot imagine a good reason to turn around and inflict that bullshit on anyone else.

Iamcuriousblue said...

"Many women are socially trained to conform to cultural instruments of sexual brainwashing (and us radical feminists know there are many). Many women are routinely taught to want to be "sexy", to find "empowerment" in sexiness."

"This 'feminism'('spread'emism') is presently the most popular kind of 'feminism' in this patriarchy, while radical feminism (real feminism) is constantly vilified, because radical feminism speaks the truth while 'spread'emism' lies (for the most part) about patriarchy.

The male-supremacist system hates hearing the truth about itself and denies it in order to maintain the status quo. Therefore, 'spread'emism' or pro-porn "feminism" gets a higher rating in patriarchy because it does not threaten the status quo but perpetuates it."


THE STUPID, IT BURNS!

"We're the true [insert belief system here] and you only believe what you do because you're brainwashed." How anybody thinks that argument is going to fly in this day and age is beyond me, but there you go. But then I guess any kind of fundamentalism can be reduced down to that proposition, ultimately.

This also gets back to what we we're talking about on the other thread, about the not-always-straightforward relationship between age and wisdom. Maggie Hays is something like 27 years old and states her case like a 12 year-old. I've seen teenagers make arguments with more nuance.

Natalia said...

Anyone who shouts about being a "real feminist" has got way too much to prove to begin with.

I think you nailed it with the Big Sister comment, Ren.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Daisy Bond said...

Ahhh

My comrades and I have been talking about making feminist porn for a long time, and I swear, nothing has ever made me want to try so much as that ridiculous post. Spread'emism? Good God.

CrackerLilo said...

*nods* I'm another "pro-porny" who doesn't like porn and doesn't watch it. Simply put, I have a really good imagination and am easily torqued up--all I need is a Josh Turner or Sinead O'Connor song--and I find visuals of other people in sexual acts a bit too, well, intimate to watch. But that's me, and I realize that other people need and want other things than I do. I fundamentally do not get why other peoples' tastes or choices are such a threat, as long as innocents (children, intellectually disabled people) aren't being exploited.

Holy shit, it just jumped into my head that some "feminists" seem to think that all women are innocents in need of protection!

Anyway. Awesome post. I bet the farm the people who need to get it don't, but glad you put it out there anyhow.

Trinity said...

"Spread'emism? Good God."

Exactly. I'd take APRFs a lot more seriously if there weren't so many of them who seem to get off, sexually or otherwise, on being petty. It's like being in fourth grade, and the other kids come up with cusses and then smile, oh so pleased with themselves.

Trinity said...

"Holy shit, it just jumped into my head that some "feminists" seem to think that all women are innocents in need of protection!"

That's exactly what it is. The pure chaste maiden vs. the leering, pawing libertine.

I'm not sure what that makes me, as a female porn consumer who tends to identify with whoever the top is. Male-IDed lecher, probably. ;)

belledame222 said...


So long as a whore is subhuman, abuseable, ignorable, discardable, women can be kept in line by the threat of converting them into whores.


Exactly. Further, that is, with only the slightest of adjustments, exactly the same way in which homophobia serves to police men (and to a lesser extent, arguably, women). And is also exactly why my supposed sisters rabbiting on about "disapproving" of someone's "sexual choices," not that that means they're PREJUDICED or anything, sends me into such conniption fits.

as per "spread'emism:" amazing how much some supposed radical feminists sound like MRA's sometimes.

belledame222 said...

and really, "higher rating?" does she fancy the "patriarchy" to be an entity like unto Zagats? grip. get one. stat.

belledame222 said...

also, anyone who uses the term "brainwashing" to describe someone who just happens to disagree with their position on whatever, without the slightest bit of apparent irony, well, that is someone i *nod* *smile* *back away* from.

it is the sort of thing one tends to hear from the people who shout and press pamphlets on one on subways, and particularly earnest eighteen year olds filled with the fire of the Lord, or Ayn Rand, or something.

3-hole mary said...

So, what's the difference between "sexually-conservative" radfems and the old "sexually-conservative" Patriarchy that they hated?

Nick Kiddle said...

"pro-pornstitution"
The last time I got involved in that argument, I asked whether that was anything like the way the pro-life side like to call pro-choice folk "pro-abortion", falsely conflating "making this illegal will only do more harm" and "this is brilliant yay woot!" A couple of people got it and agreed, but one poor maligned radfem was outraged that I had compared her to anti-choicers.

MyLittlePorny said...

Go porn!!!

Trinity said...

"The last time I got involved in that argument, I asked whether that was anything like the way the pro-life side like to call pro-choice folk "pro-abortion", falsely conflating "making this illegal will only do more harm" and "this is brilliant yay woot!""

which is exactly why I've never been a big fan of calling them anti-choicers, honestly. I get what that move is supposed to do: lay bare part of their assumption set. But honestly I'd really rather everyone's positions stand on their own merit (at which point most pro-life positions buckle under right away anyway), and everyone have the right to name themselves.

I guess for me it boils down to: I'm confident enough that I'm right that I don't have to rename someone else's position.

belledame222 said...

one poor maligned radfem was outraged that I had compared her to anti-choicers.

That happens a lot ime. and I also generally tend to call people what they want to be called (unless I'm really annoyed at them personally for doing unto me and mine). But, yeah: ime if you even try to make the -comparison,- howls of outrage.

oddly enough, i got a similar reaction from a not anti-porn, sex-positive, vehemently pro-choice woman as well, when she was gratuitously demonizing a self-ID'd pro-life (as in, wants to keep it legal, an actual nuanced view) pal of mine, only from the opposite direction. That is TOTALLY DIFFERENT of course. isn't it always, though. isn't it just.

well o.k.

Anthony Kennerson said...

Huuumph. "Spread'emism". Right.

All I will say about Ms. Hays and her diatribe is that I'd rather that women be able to spread their legs for whatever they wish sexually rather than kneel down to the soulless, sexless, freedom-hating world that she and her APF "sisters" would impose on both men and women.

In short: progressive and hemane "Spread'emism" beats APF sex fascism any day of the week.

And I love the fact that she calls herself an "anti-capitalist" and an "anti-imperialist".....though I'd really like to see any genuine efforts she has done on those issues, rather than just use them as foils for her "pornstitution" crusade.


Anthony

Drakyn said...

The only porn I like is fanfiction and some fanart. All of which is done for free by folks who just really like the series and/or characters they are writing/drawing.

And spead'emism? That's just as bad as sex-pox.
Are we sure these folks are into double digits yet? This reminds me of my little sister calling me a jerkface back when she was eight.

whatsername said...

"Pro-porn" labeled here too, who the vast majority of porn does absolutely nothing for, right here as well!

And here's where I cheer on your post.

nataliaantonova said...

***as per "spread'emism:" amazing how much some supposed radical feminists sound like MRA's sometimes.***

The language speaks for itself.

"Those shameless hussies are opening their legs!!!"

Queen Of Harlots said...

Indeed, I feel empowered everytime I spread my legs and suck the life outta a man's...wallet. :P

Trinity said...

posted at belles and xposted here:

The thing that gets me the most about this is the conversion experience. Here's Maggie:

Then and Now

"Then, I did not use to care much about other people's lives or, more exactly, I wasn't very much aware of what really happened in their lives, women's lives in particular.

Then, whatever happened in my life, however much male cruelty or male indifference I had to put up with, I thought these experiences were only parts of my life, not of someone else's. I mean that there was probably nothing in common between my life and other women's lives....

I wore a lot of make-up; I dressed in short skirts, tight tops, stockings and I wore high heeled knee high black boots. And I went dancing. And I remember them saying to me: "You are very sexy" or "You're gorgeous", etc. And I liked it. I craved male approval of me because it was giving me a way of feeling a form of empowerment somehow, albeit illusory.

....One day, I was online and I was introduced to an anti-pornography article which led me to radical feminism. I found out about the harms of pornography and prostitution. I then ordered and read books to instruct me on what was really going on around me and on the fact that I was living in patriarchy and had always been.

Since that day, nothing has ever been the same for me. Since that day, I became a feminist. I genuinely cared about women's lives and what was happening to them."

It fascinates me: *one* article turns someone's whole life upside down.

"Oh, wait, my whole life has a totally different meaning than I ever thought! Everything is different now! Everything I used to do for fun is tainted!"

I've never been quite able to figure it all out. For me, well... the idea of living that fractured a life, where you can just totally abandon your former way of moving in the world because it's just simply *wrong*... well, it bothers me. Creeps me out, honestly.

I don't think humans can live like that. I've tried, more than once, and it's always fallen apart.

Ravenmn said...

Great post and comments. Add me to the list of pro-porn feminists who don't buy or enjoy capitalist porn. In fact, drakyn hit my kinks exactly: I only consume non-commercial porn of the fanfiction variety.

BUT, I gotta say Ms. Hayes is kind of a lightweight. Each of her arguments boil down to, if you don't agree with me, you're stupid.

Paragraph one: you're misled
Paragraph two: you're misnamed
Paragraph three: you're misnamed
Paragraph four: you capitulate, you don't analyze, you merely reflect
Paragraph five: you're social trained, you're brainwashed, you're mis-taught
Paragraph six: you're blind, you're mis-taught, you're disempowered, you aren't enabled....
and so on ad infinitem....

If she's so sure anyone who doesn't agree with her is a mindless twit, why write the post at all? Why would anyone think her arguments make sense if she hasn't used any wisdom in creating them?

belledame222 said...

yeah, she's not very good at this. not that that stops amateurs from trying and trying again, isn't that right, MRA troll of the hour?

at least "harlot" is a little tiny bit of a change.

"concubine, paramour, fille de joie--silence, naughty lady of the night!..."