WOOOOO lookie! I am Blessed and shit with the presence of…Lucky! Check it, from my Porn, and feminism, and irony post. I can’t help it…must…fis…snark.
OP statements lucky quoted in red, Lucky herself in blue, my responses in black, of course…
Lucky said...
Certain Feminists: Porn presents unrealistic images of women’s bodies and portrays all women as objects. It defines them solely as things to be used for male pleasure.
True.
Depends on the porn. As for unrealistic images…turn on your damn TV, look at any magazine, watch a video, look at a cartoon…and woo, these things aren’t geared even to adults only!
These same feminists spend a whole lot of time judging women for any action or alterations they make with their bodies, outright insulting people’s appearances, and mocking rituals/styles of dress they don’t approve of.
Personally, I could care less what you wear. Hey, run through the streets naked if that's what pulls your trigger! I certainly would if I could get away with it! However, we don't live in that kind of world. You know it and I know it so let's cut the crap. In lieu of this, it's a bit absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you.
In short, go ahead and reinforce those horrible stereotypes yourself, brave feminist! At least you have the spine to admit, yes, Real Feminists engage in this sort of bullshit…
Certain Feminists: Porn degrades women.
True.
Yep. Some of it certainly does. Never said otherwise.
Certain Feminists: Porn propagates lies about women.
True. And tells the truth about men.
Actually, your bias is showing through there. Not all men have 10 inch dicks, six pack abs, and can fuck like machines for 90 minutes. Sigh, if it was only true…
Certain Feminists: We have the concerns of women at heart.
Whose best interests and benefit do you work for? Women's? Why would you imagine that being a penis accessory benefits women as a class?
Um, I imagine being a person recognized with choice, autonomy, agency sexuality, intelligence and a personality is good for women. Calling women a dick accessory shows you own inability to do that, cupcake.
Certain Feminists: We care about sex workers.
You care about sex workers so much that you oppose them having legal rights, better working conditions, access to condoms, equal treatment under the law, and actively decry anyone who works for these things as pimps, liars, or enablers. Oh, and you care about the ones who say what you want to hear, until they stop, then, you toss them aside and slander them. Hell, most of you won't even call them sex workers even if they repeatedly say that is what they prefer to be called!
Well, we also don't support drug dealers, bank robbery, embezzlement, arson, murder and a host of other things even tho women do them. Oh! How rude of feminists not to support all the choices of women!
Then y’all need to shut the fuck up and stop saying how much you care about sexworkers, natch?
BTW, I don't think I've ever heard a man refer to sex workers as sex workers. Shall I repeat what men refer to sex workers as? Hmmm... how comes you're not pissing and moaning about that? You don't have double standards, do you?
I have. But sure, a lot of ‘em call them whores too. Hey, odd that, I say whore myself. And if ya think I’ve never mentioned scum bag men, wrong again. Why aren’t you commenting there…no double standards? What?
P.S. It's only slander if it's not true.
Well, truth ain’t always y’alls strong suit (to parphrase).
Certain Feminists: Porn & Sex Work Stereotype women and make all women seem available or useable, willingly and eagerly, for sex.Humm, so…all men hate women, all men are entitled assholes, all men are scum, all men are stupid, so on, are not stereotypes?
Well, yeah, I think that about sums men up. But add to the list lying, thieving, cowardly bullies and by jove, I think you've got it!
You’re a real happy, optimistic charmer, aren’t ya? How’d you have kids again?
Certain Feminists: We speak on behalf of women.
Did the entire female populace of the world have an election and give you that honor and duty? Humm, never got my ballot.
Maybe it's because felons aren't allowed to vote?
Correction, convicted felons in prison/on parole. Oddly enough, I am not blogging from Attica…
Certain Feminists: Porn Causes Rape No, rapists cause rape.
Well, no, porn is not the cause. Men are the cause. But porn most certainly does contribute to rape. Just consider it gas being poured on an already raging fire. Serial killers have admitted that porn played a major role in their rape, torture and murder of women. But you're going to deny it? So I'm curious. How do you manage to breathe with your head so far up your ass? Scuba gear?
Of all the things that have been up my ass, my head is not one of them. And gee, no serial killer and his slick ass attorney would ever try to shift blame, would they? Hell, the twinkie defense worked and all... Yes, I know. Marilyn Manson causes school shootings, video games, comics and television and liturature cause violence, media in general causes humans to do stupid and horrible shit…so, are you for getting rid of all of it?
Certain Feminists: We listen to the needs of women/sex workers.
Depends on what the needs are. See above about drug dealing, bank robbery, arson, etc.
Indeed, because some women are more equal than others! And hell, I've seen some of your sisters adovcate assault, battery, grervious bodily harm and arson.
Certain Feminists: Well, you can’t count on the word of women with a vested interest in the sex industry!
Well, that's a little like asking an alcoholic why he drinks.
And gee, what’s the first question they ask people in AA. Bad analogy. So much for 'getting to the root'. Maybe you need a proctologist to find your own head?
It also sets you up nicely to play a patronizing game of Mother Knows Best, by your own rules of course…
As opposed to what you advocate? Father knows best? Hey, do you think if you kiss daddy's ass enough, he'll save yours? So what do you think you'll be doing in a couple of years when men consider you an old, haggard, washed up, used up has-been, and toss you to the side of the road like a used up rag doll? Or do you think with enough plastic surgery maybe men won't notice and you can pretend you're 18 forever?
I advocate autonomy, cupcake. And gee, my back up plan has been discussed previously, my dear. In place and everything. With even a plan C to put into motion if necessary. And several years past 18, I’m still doin’ just fine. What is it with y'all's need for me to be broken, used up, old, haggard, whatever else, tossed aside, and miserable...what, so I will have to come crawling to you begging for forgiveness? And you all call me a creepy sadist? Shit, no way I’d want to be 18 forever. Point is, neither mum nor dad knows what’s best for everyone, even if they insist they do. ANd you know, there are a lot of women out there in their 40's, 50's, 60's who are really quite attractive and happy. How horrible, I know!
P.S. Stop calling yourself a feminist. You're about as feminist as my brother's left nut. I mean, you could sit in a garage and call yourself a car and all, but that doesn't make you one, now does it?
You mean you haven't hacked that off the poor guy yet? Sigh. You can read, right? EXPATRIATE. Hell, you can call yourself a…oh forget it, not worth the extra venom.
Trust me on this. No one will mistake you for a feminist. You can bullshit your parents, you can bullshit your friends, you can bullshit the world. But do yourself a favor and stop bullshitting yourself, ok?
Yeah, I keep trying to get people to stop mistaking me for a Feminist (the real kind, you know, like you). As far as trust…well…about as far as I could throw you? And nah, cupcake, I got no time for Bullshit…well, except Penn & Teller’s version. And get some new material, the "you can call yourself a car / kiss daddy's ass shit is SOOO...well, the last however many comments you've made all over the place.
P. S: Next post, a video, enjoy it, Lucky…
xoxo- Ren
Tuesday, May 13, 2008
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33 comments:
Personally, I could care less what you wear. Hey, run through the streets naked if that's what pulls your trigger! I certainly would if I could get away with it! However, we don't live in that kind of world. You know it and I know it so let's cut the crap. In lieu of this, it's a bit absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you.
Uh . . . that sounds to me an awful lot like "Well if she wasn't out so late wearing that . . ."
You know Ren, I don't agree with everything you say (probably closer to about 80%), but as a proud feminist I'd much MUCH rather be associated with you any day of the week than with the kind of rad feminists who espouse this bullshit and act like the world's worst feminist stereotypes while saying things that are patently unfeminist (see above).
Of course, my refusal to brand my husband as a stupid lying misogynist probably gets me kicked out of Lucky's special little "feminist" club, too . . .
"absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you"
Fucking hell....
"Uh . . . that sounds to me an awful lot like "Well if she wasn't out so late wearing that . . ."
Exactly!
Everything old is new again!
In lieu of this, it's a bit absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you.
Um, coming in a bit late, and having the wrong plumbing, isn't this what most of our top feminist friends refer to as "slut shaming?"
This is pretty typical stuff. I think that all men and all women and all children should be able to walk down any alley at 3am, and do so safely. But that's not the world we live in, and so I advise most of them not to do it, or to do so carefully and in groups, carry cellphones, carry a bat, and even to watch how you dress, and wear good running sneakers.
If I tell that to a man it's one thing, but if I tell that to a woman than even Atrios considers that to be slut shaming.
And for whatever reason, I always carry my car keys in my hand protective like when I walk through parking lots.
I don't consider any of that to be slut shaming, though are top feminist friends certainly do.
(I also think that if a man or woman wears sweatpants with a great big "juicy" splashed across their butt, it is perfectly rude of me, but perfectly fair of me to ask them about it.)
(I'm probably wrong....)
Anyway, interesting to see the slut shaming going on....
Uh . . . that sounds to me an awful lot like "Well if she wasn't out so late wearing that . . ."
No no no, it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT.
Because...
Uh...
-crickets-
ohyeah: men are mutants and pretty soon we're gonna partheogenetically evolve 'em right out of existence. That bit IS different from the run of the mill right wing woman's tsk tsking, true enough. Um, can't really help with the rest yet.
And really, lucky uncle, can't you come up with something new? You've used that car in the garage thing a bunch of times now.
Tangentially related, but I thought very interesting, is Olivia Judson, author of Dr. Tatiana’s Sex Advice to All Creation: The Definitive Guide to the Evolutionary Biology of Sex, nytimes oped A Seedy Rivalry
One paragraph contains some information that might explain why men enjoy porn:
So, do men tailor their ejaculates depending on how they perceive the risk of sperm competition from one situation to the next?
Possibly. It seems that the quality of the ejaculate a man produces by masturbating can be altered by having him look at sexual videos and images while he does so. Men — even those with vanishingly low sperm counts — ejaculate more healthy sperm if they masturbate while watching sexual videos than if they do it while staring at the ceiling. And the effect doesn’t stop there. Men shown explicit pictures of a woman with two men (potential rivals) produce a higher proportion of swimming sperm than men shown explicit pictures of three women.
that business about pouring gasoline on a fire: the implication is that men are, like a fire, a force of nature, not -people- per se. And/or the phenomenon of "rape" is, at least. Just this thing that -happens-, really, not under -conscious- control; porn is like a "red flag to a bull," like -animals.-
Which, never mind that it's yup insulting to men, which of course lucky won't care about; the -real- point here is that it's not all that far removed from the ol'
"This bad weather's like rape; may as well lie back and enjoy it."
Force of nature. see. Storms, dumb wild beasts, fires. It's not like you can -talk- to the people in question; -they'll never change and you shouldn't expect them to.- All you can do is not provoke them, lock 'em up and kill 'em, and/or shake impotent fists and wait for it to stop.
or "lie back and enjoy it," although even lucky uncle probably wouldn't go that far.
but, well, the idea that rape is -not- a conscious choice but rather just this inevitable -thing-, part of savage nature?
is pretty fucking anti-feminist in -my- book.
and no, I'm afraid waiting around for your Gaian Rapture isn't an option for those of us who don't live in the Bizarro World.
p.s. I think there must be mineral shortages from -all that tinfoil-.
Jerry: well, there is a difference between "look, going down such and so a street at 3 AM alone isn't safe; please be careful" and "whining about the attention she was asking for."
I think pants with JUICY across the butt suggests that one might be inviting people to look at one's rear end, yes. It doesn't follow that "oh hay sexually assault me now or even harass me to distraction, that's totally fine."
My favourite crazy radical feminists are the ones who come out with the most misogynistic garbage.
*"If you go out late at night looking for a good time and dressed like that, you have only yourself to blame when you get what's coming to you!"
*"Women who work in the sex industry are nothing more than 'penis accessories' and don't deserve anyone's respect or help."
Next week: behead the adulteress!
Ren the person you are arguing is with a sexist bigot. To argue with this person is the same as debating race relations with the grand master of the kkk. The twisted hate engendered here is pathological, you might as well have traded recipes with Dahlmer. I only hope that the poor guy she eventually attempts violence upon (because that is the only way she will feel vindicated or equal) is savvy enough to protect himself without getting suckered into being "proven" the aggressor.
Of all the things that have been up my ass, my head is not one of them.
Bwahahahaha!!!
FTR, I soooo want to stay up and make my own version of a feminist Animoto video, but the lure of putting something (dick-shaped and attached to Rusty) up my ass is calling. Decisions...
and, okay, so now, sex workers are like unto arsonists, murderers, etc.
So, therefore, they should be in jail, yes? It's -right- to criminalize, not just the ev0l menz, but the complicit women, i.e. porn stars who don't claim they were forced into it, on account of we -don't support such things- and apparently it enables rape. Good to know! p.s. are you sure you aren't Phyllis Schlafly?
So what do you think you'll be doing in a couple of years when men consider you an old, haggard, washed up, used up has-been, and toss you to the side of the road like a used up rag doll?
ooh, wait, I know this one! Running tearfully to you for forgiveness and protection!
*koff koff koff*
Or, you know...it might not happen? and also even in the unlikely scenario that it did (you know that she's in a -happy- marriage/longterm relationship also, right?), Ren's rather smart and resourceful and would probably do just fine on her brains and talent?
also, lucky: little drool, there.
Maybe it's because felons aren't allowed to vote?
...wow.
Well, we knew you were a racist, sexist, transphobic, authoritarian fuckstick already, lucky uncle (not to mention completely out of your tree); I guess nothing should be surprising out of your spatulate fingers, but really. Yes, very -radical-, there. Very anti, well, everything the ev0l patriarchy stands for: misogyny, repression, silencing, demonization of whole classes of people, black/white mentality, punitive...
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" p.s. shut up, whore, you're a CRIMINAL, no one cares what you think.
lovely.
Lucky's bizarre response suggests that her feminism is "a la carte" -- she wants to pick and choose which women are worthy of feminism. Sex workers: negative. Women showing skin: negative (in fact, it's OK or at least understandable that they will be raped). Women over 25, if you don't like their job: negative.
Bottom line: this kind of feminism isn't feminism, it's just another kind of sorority hazing. If it were feminism, I too would be an expatriate -- but luckily (no pun intended) it isn't and I'm not, and none of us need to use this definition as a reason to be.
Well, see, now there we go.
Same old same old.
This made me laugh, however: "Of all the things that have been up my ass, my head is not one of them."
As for the rest, esp this "You're about as feminist as my brother's left nut," I've only two words in reply: "So peacefully."
Blech.
Oh and I agree with Cara:"Uh . . . that sounds to me an awful lot like "Well if she wasn't out so late wearing that . . ."
Indeed.
Nice, ey?
"Exactly!
Everything old is new again!"
So, then, a "feminist" like Lucky saying "it's a bit absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you" is the new black, I guess.
*"Women who work in the sex industry are nothing more than 'penis accessories' and don't deserve anyone's respect or help."
But I *like* being a penis accessory!
These are the people who made me (briefly)stop calling myself a feminist years ago. Same shit, different day.
I love your blog, btw.
~cheers
***In lieu of this, it's a bit absurd to intentionally wave a red flag at a bull and then start whining that you got the attention you were looking for and the bull attacked you. ***
The "uncovered meat" cleric strikes again!
Oh! But this brand of "feminism" has nothing at ALL to do with fundamentalist religion! How *dare* anyone suggest that!!!
Seriously, anyone who calls another woman a "dick accessory" or whatever, is NOT a feminist, and as far as I'm concerned, the movement needs to toss her out on her stupid ass.
I usually attempt to remain civil when it comes to these things, and I don't like drawing a line and trying to decide who's a "real" feminist and who isn't, but by God, if we're going to reclaim this term, then people like Lucky Uncle are NOT going to be counted under it.
I would love to know how the "porn causes rape" folks explain the fact that as porn has become more widely available on the Internet the rate of rape in the United States has declined dramatically. I never even hear them try to refute that particular statistic, as though it doesn't exist. Or maybe they just don't want to address information that contradicts their pet theory.
Seeing as rape has declined at about the same rate as other violent crime since 1991 I'm not about to claim that porn prevents rape, but given the crime statistics it is very unlikely that a causal relationship exists between them. If such a relationship did exist, you would expect see the rates of rape rising as porn became more available even if the overall rate of violent crime was declining.
Asserting that porn causes rape because rapists have been found to look at porn is reading the data backwards, as any scientist knows. Correlation is not causality even though the ignorant often treat it as such.
Ren the person you are arguing is with a sexist bigot.
well, and also a total raving tinfoil wearing 'bat; but hey, sometimes it beats picking dandruff off the cat, you know...
"I never even hear them try to refute that particular statistic, as though it doesn't exist."
start here
Oh, wow. Ren, you sure know how to find people who can make themselves sound good, right and rational.
"BTW, I don't think I've ever heard a man refer to sex workers as sex workers. Shall I repeat what men refer to sex workers as?"
This is just a guess, but I think Lucky doesn't have too many guy-friends. imlx that term is something of a activist vocabulary flag; it's rarely used in the msm - even during the Ipswich murders, it was rare to read the term. People who say 'sex worker' tend to be activists, and at least nominal allies...so I've heard activist men use it whenever they've cause to refer to sex work, while non-activist women never do.
Also, if Lucky thinks it's a phrase men never use, it's interesting that she's siding with those [imaginary] men.
Well Belldame I know this is a little late to the thread but, I've had some cats with really engaging dandruff. I'm just saying...
Anonymous said:
"'I never even hear them try to refute that particular statistic, as though it doesn't exist.'
start here"
Oh, I see, so you don't need any actual evidence for a porn-caused rape epidemic – you can just say its actually happening, but is simply "underreported". Never mind that I don't see any evidenced that reporting and prosecuting rape was any easier back when the stats were higher.
Nothing like making unfalsifiable assertion as a way to convince yourself that you're right.
Ananael Qaa said:
"Seeing as rape has declined at about the same rate as other violent crime since 1991 I'm not about to claim that porn prevents rape, but given the crime statistics it is very unlikely that a causal relationship exists between them. If such a relationship did exist, you would expect see the rates of rape rising as porn became more available even if the overall rate of violent crime was declining."
Well, such a relationship could conceivably exist if there were other factors that drove the incidence of rape downward and acted to counterbalance it. (Not that I think that's what's going on, but just pointing that out.) That's why correlation in social science is studied using multiple regression models, and even using that, the science can still be pretty dodgy.
And the point that correlation does not equal causality is a point that needs always to be emphasized. It means there's a relationship, but where causality lies still needs to be demonstrated.
That's why I don't argue that the decline in rape rates as porn has gained more acceptance is conclusive proof that porn acts as a "safety valve" and prevents rape. I seem to remember a study a few years back that claimed that, actually. Radical feminists were all over that one, and I believe briefly found the "correlation does not equal causality" argument to their liking. Funny how these same people didn't have the same criticisms of Melissa Farley's assertion last year that the legality of prostitution in Nevada is directly causal toward the relatively high rape statistics in that state.
"Asserting that porn causes rape because rapists have been found to look at porn is reading the data backwards, as any scientist knows."
That's very much the case, and half the time, such assertions aren't even data, but anecdotes (eg, Ted Bundy's 11th hour "porn made me do it" gambit).
"BTW, I don't think I've ever heard a man refer to sex workers as sex workers."
I have! (Raises hand.) Often, in fact.
Sure, if I'm checking out the latest Justine Joli video, I might have a description of her in mind that's a hell of a lot more rhapsodic than "What a great sex worker", but that's a whole different context.
I think the porn increase/rape decline thing is correlation, not causation.
As mentioned above, stating that rape being underreported makes the statistics meaningless doesn't make sense. It strikes me as a pretty reasonable assumption that rape is underreported now and that it was underreported in 1991.
The conviction statistics miss a large percentage of rapes because they only include rapes that were both reported and successfully prosecuted. Still, is there any reason to think that the rates of reporting and the rates of conviction would have changed significantly over the last 20 years? If not, the statistics can still show a trend.
I agree that any relationship between porn and rape is most likely correllation rather than causality. The conviction statistics for rape follow the overall statistics for violent crimes more closely than they follow any other factor, including the availability of porn. That suggests that rape is primarily motivated by the same factors as other violent crimes.
God, that woman is such an asshole.
As a vanilla, monogamous feminist who hasn't quite settled on a position re: the sex industry, and as someone who enjoys your blog but doesn't always agree what you have to say...
I just want to say that posts like "Lucky's" are an embarrassment to feminism. Ad hominem attacks and biological essentialism are not the tools of the enlightened!
I believe rape is always wrong like robbery and murder is always wrong.
However that doesn't mean the world owes it to me to give me a place so safe that I can drive an armored bank vehicle through the ghetto, with the doors open, yelling taunts at the gang members on the street corners.
The fact is, rape is wrong like letting your dog maul the neighborhood kids is wrong. In both cases, jail terms are warranted, if the victim can prove the allegations. Absolutely!
But feminists come across badly when they insist on ignoring one very relevant fact: nobody has now, or will ever have, any sympathy for victims who have a history of teasing the animals.
(If this post gets published, someone set a stopwatch timer to see how long before someone puts the argument in my mouth that women shouldn't be allowed to show their ankles in public. I am talking about "red flags at bulls". And, yes, we all know exactly what that means, and it doesn't mean hiking shorts or tank tops.)
Anonymous-
So men are like animals that can be taunted into an attack? Shit, I give them a hell of a lot more credit than that. I'm a stripper, I get completely naked, grind on dudes crotches, let them touch my tits, all that stuff....and I've never been raped because why yes, rape is wrong, ALWAYS, and all men SHOULD know that, no matter what flags are waved.
And I don't give a fuck about sympathy from someone like you
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