“Deflecting our criticisms with aspersions upon our character is an ad hominem attack writ large. When your entire argument rests upon insults, you’ve lost the debate. When your entire argument is “look at the tear-stained face”, you never had an argument to begin with. When your entire argument presupposes an assumption which you never bothered to prove, — child, you are a fucking fool.”
Okay then, fool, step up!
First, go on over and read the whole (long, insult ladden) post quoted there. Then come on back over here and sit for a spell…I mean, I'm pretty sure I've already logic-ed this woman into an early grave, but what the hell, my body wax isn't until 2.
Now, read that quote again. See, I’ve already stated that mAndrea fails the logic litmus test due to her over use of insults and emotionally charged language, because using such is designed to incite emotions rather than logic…then, oddly enough, she goes on (see the quote), to say more or less the same thing herself, yet do it anyway. As for the “tear stained face”, well, she’s using one of those too. In this case, the crying girls on the other end are ciswomen. Amber, where is your “fail” stamp? But, let us continue…
But really, did she just call people from the other side of the reality fence…vanilla? Hahahahaaaha! Oh shit, I think I just ruptured something!
Anyway…mAndrea rambles on about how the end all goal is to do away with gender. I’ve heard many-a-feminist state that this is the end goal- no gender. She actually makes some (minor) sense here. However, she forgets three important things: One, we are not there yet, and here in the really real world, people still have to live and function. Two, transpeople do a great deal to dismantle gender and it’ stereotypes. Three, “non-vanilla” (ha, I can’t help it) feminists do a whole hell of a lot to hold up constructed gender roles.
Oh wait, did I just actually make that accusation? Why yes, I did. Why?
Well, if you look around and some of those pervy, non-vanilla feminist blogs, rarely, if ever, will you see any discussion whatsoever about the biological differences between male and female. Why? Because often, it is unecessary. We all know there are differences; different parts, different sizes, different *and varying* hormone levels, different generalized appearance related and external characteristics. This is proven scientific fact. No need to debate. However…if that’s really where it all, for the most part, ends, and everything else is a gender construct, well then…
When these non-vanilla feminists go on about the uniqueness of sisterhood, women’s ability to love and nurture in a manner superior to men, womens greater emotional depth, how men are just more violent, and emotionally stunted…are they not feeding, rather than dismantling, gender stereotypes? I mean, there is no real scientific proof that women are any more “connected” or possess greater natural depth or any other such thing: those are all based out of gender stereotypes and assumptions…stereotypes and assumptions that are predicated on…you guessed it…historical gender roles dictated by…biology.
Now wait, wait, I am not getting all evo-psyche or MRA on ya here…I am pointing out historical fact and biological truth in historical context. Fact is, back in the day, men, due to their (generally) larger physical sizes and higher levels of strength…well, it worked best when they picked up the heavy shit, you know? Which lent itself well to men doing more physical labor, buidling things, fighting in wars, so on. This doesn’t even mean they necessarily did it better, but they sure as hell did it faster, and when the option of roof or no roof on the hut before night/rain fall was a factor, speed counted. Even in the earliest stages of capital economies (right on down to present day), how fast labor could be done? It mattered. And as it was, men could do that stuff faster. Which, you know, put women into other roles…namely care-taker, primary educator, social, and domestic ones. This is no ones fault…its biology, and out of that biology, sprang forth gender roles and all that comes with them.
But, ah yes, with the rise of technology (thank you military, and apparently, porn!), women can do a lot of stuff previously, due to biology, they couldn’t before. A woman can use a fork lift. A woman can drive a tractor. A woman can format the guidence system on a bomb. A woman can pilot a ship or plane (though, after watching Deadliest Catch, I still think the men would have us beat on throwing those dang evil crab pots all over the place…sheesh!) And either way, this is not good or bad, it is based on those biological differences no one is arguing about. Men are larger and stronger as a general rule, and thus, historically, more adept at picking up heavy shit…which lent itself well towards different kinds of labor than the labor that women did. And thus, because one biolgical sex did some sorts of things, and the other did other sorts of things, almost exclusively, for such a long time…well all this played into the concept of gender, and gender roles, and ideas such as “women are better at child-rearing and more emotionally adept” and “men are better at construction and more aggresive”…which are still around today. Even on non-vanilla feminist blogs. Which really has nothing to do with internal wiring or actual emotional variance, but with some very simple things: Biologically we are different…women have babies, men have an easier time picking up heavy shit.
Simple, ain’t it?
Still with me? Well yeah, despite this very simple (and 100% logical) theory, there is still a whole lot of gender bianary reinforcement on non-vanilla feminst blogs. And why is that? Well, because even as much as they might want to dismantle gender…they cling to some aspects of it, because patriarchy and opression and other assorted bullshit aside, well, either there really are other differences, or the supposed differences that are stereotyped/hardwired/culturally driven into our brains? Well, some of them (namely the ones you see them talking about) are…cool. I mean, being considered sisterly or nuturing or caring? That’s not a bad thing, is it? Especially when the other side gets things like “violent” or “emotionally stunted”? Oh, I can see why certain memebers of the tribe cling to that shit…
So then, how and where does this play into the transperson thing? Well, on one side…the vanilla feminist one, it doesn’t, because…ahem…we’ve evolved past all that shit mentioned, and are big on ID as you want, do to/with your body as you want, and live as how works best for you. When our momma's told us you could grow up to be anything you wanted, we believed them. You can blame tech and porn if you want, but if that really neat woman over there also happens to be able to pick up heavy shit? I don’t care, and I don’t assume she’s trying to fuck me, co-opt me, or bring down tribe womyn (a gender construct of its own, really…based more on ideology than biology…after all, I’m cis, as are a lot of other women, and we’ve been tossed out. more or less, for being male identified or male centric or whatever…and none of us have penises, except for the strap on kind…and is not such concept, in and of itself…gender based?) I mean, I tend to think that some people, regardless of biology, are more caring or nutruing than others, some people, regardless of biology, are more aggressive or violent than others, and these things play out very differently because of our social and gender conditioning, but it does not change that some people are more (insert adjective here) than others. Hell, aggression is a good example: Men are often more physically aggressive than women are, because society says that’s the way men are. Women, however, are no less aggressive, they just manifest it in different ways.
She then goes on about how transpeople are the patriarchy’s subversion wing or something (dammit, I thought that was my job) and how a transwoman (who, in every way except via biology, are women and ID as women) are enforcing gender norms for wanting female bodies. Hum. Okay. First off, I want fucking cybernetics! Talk about fucking with gender! But, more imporantly…
How many times have we heard this? “Transwomen will never know what its like to have a womb, to birth babies, to breastfeed, to have…gah…PMS! They won’t ever be real women!” Yep, sure enough, those things are biological. They are also things many cis-women cannot, due to biology, do. And hey, sure enough, sooner or later, due to biology…no woman, cis or not, can do those things. Does it make them not women…or do their feelings and all that gooey internal stuff deem that they still are?
???
I’d say the same stuff, that emotion and gooey internal stuff, applies to transwomen as well. If having ones tubes tied does not revoke her woman card…hell, I assume you follow me here. You’d have to be an idiot not to. And shit, for folk who are so tied up in fighting gender…as those non-vanilla feminist sure seem, in a shit ton of ways, they are tied to it. And it is those women who mAndera is using as “the crying girls”. I reckon the rest of us? We don’t really give a shit, we’re just happy when people are as comfortable as they can be. My identity, my status as a woman, my place in the world and in life are not at all threatened by transpeople. Not in the least.
And now, a brief bit on transphobia. Our author there, mAndrea, claims not to be transphoic, but she betrays herself a bit. Phobia means fear. And while she may not be afraid of transperson X walking down the street…she does appear to be afraid…afraid of them co-opting feminism, womanhood, whatever, and that is, via the word's definition, fear. And hey, just for the hell of it, to round out the bingo card and all: Humm, fear of people. History for ya. Europe. The 30’s. Hey, those Jews/Gypsies/Slavs/Disabled People/Homosexuals/ Dark People…they’re different from us. They do things we don’t get. We think they are strange. But dammit, they are mixing into our culture, getting some acceptance, making some money, living their lives, just like us. Fuck, they're getting somewhat normalized! What can we do?
Hey, you claim to be a feminazi, sooner or later, someone will draw the seemingly appropriate parallels for you. Hate is hate, lady.
But what do I know? Even if I am being logical, I’m still just a pornified, male identified, cis woman who wants to be…a cyborg.
Thursday, June 26, 2008
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21 comments:
She -wishes- someone would weep over her bullshit. How about "derisive laughter and a loogie," mAndy?
I want to admit that I used to be anti-trans and am now pro-trans because I misunderstood most transpeople's reasons for transitioning. I used to think that they were thinking, for example, "I'm a male with characteristics that I label as 'feminine', therefore I must be a woman." I think it's really important to read or listen to people's actual experiences, and, in this case, I had read the stories of people saying things like "I realized I'm not really a fag or a wimp, I'm just a girl." (Sorry, I don't remember the name of the person who had written that.) But, I now think that sexist, homophobic transpeople like that are probably the exception to the rule, because, since then, I've read more stories about just being uncomfortable in one's own body.
Also, it's not only some transpeople, but most feminists in general, even ones who are anti-trans who use the sexist terms "masculine" and "feminine". It really bothers me when even supposedly radical feminists, who should know better, refer to butch women as "masculine" women or men who are femme as "feminine" or "effeminite". Mannerisms and style of dress are gender neutral, and it's patriarchy that splits all human characteristics into "masculine/feminine".
Also, I noticed that the more-radical-than-thou side is wrong on every other issue too (heterosexuality, porn, sex work)because of being dogmatic rather than looking at people's real lives.
Good stuff,
Though I do want to point out that it's often been certain women who've been excluded from the heavy-lifting/more physical type of work - women with more status.
Slave women of all sorts have been made to do that type of work. These women would do the heavy work and take care of babies.
That arguing template, no matter who uses it, always drove me batty. The "We'll keep the cool stereotyped parts for us and the nasty parts in this whole situation tacked onto them, but all else must ~go~, Viva la Revolución!".
They should be honest, title it "Getting rid of gendered expectations that I don't like in the name of (my) freedom while I use the rest to prop up my views." Either you'd like to get rid of dichomotic, biased gendered stereotypes that hinder everyone's actions and thoughts or you don't, there's not exactly a middle ground when claiming to declare for the destruction of stereotypes.
Cyborg <3. Always wanted to get me a properly working vision system. Wayyyyyyyyy to far in the future, but one can dream. Infrared vision would be neat. And I'd like to see some of those wavelengths of colors humans can't perceive, too.
Y'know, I'm too tired to tangle with this, but I will say that *every trans woman I've ever met who was on estrogen* has said that she gets "PMS", where by that is meant hormone-induced mood swings at regular intervals. So uh, is it the whole "blood coming out" thing that makes a real woman, then?
ksjklfgrhrjfdhgjkghfd.
Lady S- noted and, correct! indeed, class is/was in play.,,amid men too, slave men did more lifting, non slave men did more overseeing & directing.
Her argument is basically "either we hate on the transgendered or we may have to change some of our own theories." God forbid reality intrude, it's easier to hate. So basically it's time to hate on the transgendered.
And MRAs aren't nearly the evil they are made out to be. I truly encourage you to read Glenn Sacks who I suspect would agree with much of what you write.
Before using the fork lift, please review the forklift safety video with Klaus.
There's an amazing amount of doublespeak in transphobic radical feminism. Gender isn't real! Let's abolish it! Now, let's go to our womyn-only-space and talk about how wonderful female homosociality is and how that's the real lesbianism, lesbians who find other women hot and fuckable are just male-identified! Yes, women can be male-identified even though gender doesn't exist!
Make up your sodding minds.
It's pretty clear - not least due to the insistence that womynly homosociality is the best thing ever - that they know damn well that social gender exists and deeply affects our relationships with other people, and with ourselves. Maybe they want to abolish this, but I doubt it because they keep insisting that women's social behaviour is superior to men's. And it's okay for them to do that but not okay for transfolk to insist on having their social gender respected. What.
I think part of the confusion stems from her very narrow, and perhaps medically-imposed, picture of transpeople; folk who've been trans-identified since they could talk and who have the one singular goal of undergoing SRS and then riding into the sunset? I'm sure this person exists, but I haven't met hir. So if mAndrea's entire argument rests on the fact that all transfolk are, without exception, intending to surgically change their bodies, she fails. Hard.
Do you have Photoshop? I'd be happy to send you a PSD of the FAIL stamp!
amber- yes, i do!
"Yes, women can be male-identified even though gender doesn't exist!"
THIS. Gods, yes, THIS.
Also, Catseye, I often want to stop people who say "I am pro-trans." What does being "pro-trans" mean? How is transness an attitude that people can be for? (I have the same problem with "pro-woman.")
Hrm...
"The end all goal is to do away with gender..."
See, I've been pondering this lately. I know feminists say this a lot, but I'm not so sure about it.
For example...I want to eradicate racism, but I don't want to "do away with" race or ethnic heritage. If someone is proud of being Iranian or Okinawan...go for it. There is nothing wrong with celebrating that part of yourself.
The problem isn't racial diversity but values attached to racial diversity.
Similarly, if a person enjoys a gendered thing...go...be happy. The problem is not the skirt, the lipstick or the 4 inch heels...its the values some attach to those activities.
I dunno...maybe that's not what is meant by doing away with gender, but its not the vibe I get from their discussion.
The logical skills just continue, don't they?
Which automatically makes the favorite feminist theory invalid — yanno, the one where they screech that gender is a social construct.
The fact that something is constructed does not rule out the possibility that it is also real. (False dilemma, again.) The questions are of how far, and in what way, that construction is involved, and of what the nature is of the real. Personal identity is a case in point: this develops in different phases by age and cognitive ability, with experience and one's evaluation of that experience, by memory and the processes by which we remember, and by the ways in which we connect memories into concepts and abstractions -- among other things. The fact that these things occur, however, does not imply, much less have as a necessary consequence, that personal identity is not real: that no core basis for it exists. Neither does any refutation of certain kinds of construction establish the nature of that core basis. At best, it suggests avenues of inquiry regarding that nature.
Further, any conceptualization of gender as real suggests that the constructionist argument is limited, the limits being defined by the particulars of the conceptualization; but it does not of necessity invalidate it.
If gender is real, then there are real differences between men and women.
All that follows from the statement that gender is real is that there are differences between different gender identities. Tying this to differences between the biological sexes requires further postulates. At most, one could extrapolate from the genuine existence of gender to say that it has a inherent relationship to biological sex, and that by definition (which is itself a fallacy, and would rule out the existence of trans* from the start); but no further.
if gender is real, then there are other real internal differences between men and women, such as emotional/intellectual/moral/etc..
The fact that one difference exists implies neither the existence nor the absence of other differences. At best, the fallacy involved here is that of "correlation does not imply causation;" but even that's a stretch, as correlation hasn't even been established.
But darlings, when those differences become worth switching body parts over, then those differences become major, and then gender discrimination becomes not only reasonable but acceptable.
The idea that a difference exists internally and for an individual implies nothing regarding differences that are external and between individuals, even assuming that such differences exist. The two are of completely different genera: one is psychological (and perhaps neurological) and related to self-concept, whereas the other is social and related to structural relationships among and within groups.
And so on.
Compared to the holes in the so-called logic involved in that post, a colander is watertight and hermetically sealed.
Trinity, you're right that it's really too simplistic to say "pro/anti" trans (that does sound like "pro-abortion" - it doesn't really mean anything when you think about it). What I meant to convey was that I had a position that other people labeled as "anti-trans" (some friends of mine used that term a lot). Even though I always supported anyone's right to reassign their gender (and have surgery and/or hormones if they wanted), and I respected whatever pronoun they wanted to use for themselves, I had misconceptions about why they did it and thought that they did it for sexist reasons.
Great work Ren! Very logical and persuasive. Unfortunately I am not sure logic and reason are her strong suits.
I posted this on the Curvature - Cara's post about mAndrea's nonsense. It seems to fit here, too, and I'm too lazy to just rephrase it all:
The problem I have with many of the more militantly vocal advocates of “gender as a social construction” (like mAndrea in the post quoted above) is that they take “social construct” to equal “imaginary,” and then try to use that to prove that being trans isn’t really possible.
Other popular social constructs include law, government, police, money, economics, corporations, marriage, family, property, territory, nations, entertainment, fidelity, morals, ethics, taxes, language, courtesy, and so on.
mAndrea hypocritically decides that this one social construct is unacceptable and that trans people are primarily guilty for upholding a pervasive construct that is largely enforced by people who are not themselves trans. She’s attacking trans people who actually have the least amount of power when it comes to dealing with gender normativity, and are typically subjected heavily to it in order to receive treatment.
Of course, by railing against trans people, mAndrea herself is trying to reinforce gender norms, demanding that those born male never cross to womanhood and those born female never cross to manhood. She knows as well as anyone else that there is no “respectable third gender,” and that thirdgendering is used to other people and treat them as subhuman (just as she does). She transgresses nothing, she simply sets out to reinforce the dominant paradigm.
Not that is all that relevant to your post (which I agree with, as usual! Love your blog), but while the whole "men did a because they were stronger/faster" thing is true it still makes me uncomfortable...
Because I get frustrated at this being a reason to stop women doing things. For example, women were not allowed in active roles in the NZ military until fairly recently. Now they are, but the tests to get in are easier, and in the case of the Navy ropes were made smaller etc.
This pisses me off because I just want women to be allowed to do a job, if they can do it. Don't dumb it down for us!
As a woman who is unusually strong (I am as strong or stronger than many men my weight, though if I were fit and strong a male of the same weight and fitness would likely be stronger and most definitely faster), I hate "not counting". Statistically I am an outlier, but I just don't like not existing in discussions like this.
I'm not correcting anything you've said, I just wanted to note how alienated one can be made to feel by discussions about how "men are generally x" and "women are generally y"... This is pretty much my reason for wanting to deconstruct gender as much as possible, so that women and men can be as masculine or effeminate as they are personally comfortable with and they're just taken as they are rather than having to prove yourself in the case of a, uh, "masculine" woman (is there an equivalent to effeminate for women?).
Anonymous said:
"Her argument is basically "either we hate on the transgendered or we may have to change some of our own theories." God forbid reality intrude, it's easier to hate. So basically it's time to hate on the transgendered."
What Anon and Infra said.
mAndrea basically argues that if we accept gender transitioning, that means that gender might have some kind of physical basis, and that might make us have to rethink some of our precious feminist theory, AND WE CAN'T DO THAT!
Once again, spoken like true fundamentalists.
She assumes the "look at the tear-stained face" (argumentum ad misericordiam) is necessarily a fallacy, which of course it isn't. That irritated me a bit. As for the "vanilla" feminists, good Lord! I had a right massive smile on my face when I read that.
I'm sooooo sick of this shit. No such thing as a transperson? Fuck you, if I'm not possible, give me my goddamn privilege back. *middle finger*
I don't aspire to irradiate gender, but free it from biology. Why am I like this? Why does it matter? It makes me focused, centered, and happy. It's the way I choose to live. Oppression is based on the restriction of free will. What is choice all about? FREE WILL OVER ONES BODY. Unless you're pro-life, seriously stfu...hypocrite.
Sorry Ev, I'm just sick of other people trying to decide if what I'm doing to my own body is ok. I'm fed up.
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