Heya Mags, how about a Steel Cage Match???

You knew it was just a matter of time, right?

Read the whole thing, in context…like I always suggest, lest I be…ahem…accused of not linking or taking things out of context. Besides, it’s pretty much what I always do…unlike…oh, you know.

Now, I have taken select sections, reproduced them here, and I shall respond. Free speech and all. And no, Maggie didn’t give me permission, nor am I paying her. She’s welcome to participate in the comment thread if she likes, and there are no images used here, so I’m still a few steps ahead on the consideration factor compared to Maggie and her allies and idols. Don’t I feel smugly superior? Yes, I do, because I am not a chicken shit!


I blame the porno-iarchy for the lack of choices most women who enter prostitution have (when I say 'prostitution', that also includes pornography as a form of prostitution of course).

So, you blame porno-iarchy (what a stupid ass word by the way, even “porno-archy” rolls off the tongue more smoothly) for lack of quality education, lack of medical insurance, lack of job training, lack of child care, lack of workplace opportunities, and lack of affordable housing, lack of drug treatment programs, lack of well funded out-reach and transition programs, and basically a bad economy in general? Well, that’s amazingly convenient! Must be nice to see the world so simply!

I blame the porno-iarchy for all the rapes, the battery, the sexual and physical violence against (mostly) women and girls that happen in this culture.

All rapes? Rapes that existed before pornography, rapes that happen in places where there is no porn, rapes committed by those who do not watch porn? Well, hey, what about blaming…oh, the rapists you fucking idiot?

I blame the porno-iarchy for blaming the victims of rape (saying that's "her fault, she's responsible for what happened because blah, blah, blah. . .") and not the rapists.

HAHAHAHA! Woman, you just said you blamed the porno-iarchy? Which is it, porno-iarchy, or the rapists?

I blame the porno-iarchy for accusing us of "siding with religious zealots".

Except, when you do side with religious zealots? Media Watch? The more fundamentalist factions of the US Republican Party? World governments heavily based in Catholic faith? Nah, a lot of the time, true enough, radical feminists and holy-rollers seem to be at each others throats, yet when it comes to the sex industry, well, two sides in that bed together for certain. And you’ve certainly been known to act like religious zealots, your faith being radical feminism. I mean, people get excommunicated, shamed, shunned, shut out, and there is no tolerance for dissent. Now, where have I heard about that kind of thing before? Oh yeah…

I blame the porno-iarchy for not letting us rad fems educate enough people on the harms of pornography 'cause of the malestream media being tied to the pornography industry, 'cause pro-porners are endlessly trying to silence us and 'cause of 'leftist' liberal stubborn pornography-protecting mind (as Gail Dines & Robert Jensen say 'Pornography is a Left Issue', not a right-wing one)

Excuse me? Because yes, radical feminists have never been allowed or represented at pornography discussion events anywhere, ever. Try again, Maggie.

I blame the porno-iarchy for some women defending pornography and prostitution in the name of 'feminism'.

Because those women, of course, have no agency and could never, ever choose to do things of their own volition. Thanks, you arrogant fucking meatsack, but no thanks.

I blame the porno-iarchy for the pro-pornstitution 'feminists' being unfairly magnified by malestream media.

Oh fuck off. Do WE have educational forums at our disposal at a whim like Farley and Dines? No, we do not. And have you ever watched a fucking episode of Law & Order, 20/20, dateline, CSI, Without a Trace, or gee, anything other than Cathouse????

The fact is that once a woman has entered the sex industry and she is harmed within it, there is no going back. The damage from past ill-treatment, the PTSD, the pain, the unsettling trauma, etc. are all there. And the pornstitution apologists would have us believe that she "chose it", thus nothing can be said? Many (especially male) pro-prostitutionists would have us believe that once a prostituted woman has 'chosen it' and has been paid, the harms done to her body and mind can then all be dismissed or forgotten. What an anti-woman propaganda! :(

Excuse me? Excuse ME?? Oh you are an asshole, Maggie. I don’t see any one of us out here closing our blogs to dissenting discussion, erasing radical feminist words, denying radical feminist opinion, agency, or thought a right to exist in our places. I also see none of us saying the sex biz is all fun and games and just jolly-jolly for everyone in it.

Also, the 'sex poz' lobby would have us believe that prostitution is (for the most part) not abusive, that it is work, and that pornography is liberating or can be. . . What a rhetorical nonsense! Broken record, *yawn*. . . It is such a distressing shame that some women have been deluded into believing all this very nonsense and thus have been encouraged to defend pornstitution.

Ah yes, we’re sooooo deluded, us poor little duped idiot fools. And we have a lobby? What kind, like in the Playboy Hotel, or the political kind? If it's the latter, where's our money, dammit? But how the fuck can you know what we say or think when you don’t (supposedly) read us, huh? Rhetorical nonsense? Woman, what is this whole screed other than that? Oh, and Mags? Not a monolith, and you will sure as hell find writings on the abusive shit on a ton of ‘sex poz’ blogs. Could you be any more disingenuous?

I do not believe in "sex work", i.e. "prostitution as a good career option for women". I believe that prostitution is an inherently harmful and misogynistic form of sexual abuse. This is why I do not call prostitution "sex work". Prostitution is not the oldest profession, it is the world's oldest lie.

And you believe it, thus, it must be true for all! The Great Maggie Proclaims, and thus, it is law! And her terminology is law! Fuck whatever the women actually in the business might actually say or feel about it! Great way to show you care there, Maggie!

I do not believe in "sex work", just like I do not believe in "feminist porn" (oxymoron). Prostitution and pornography are inherently misogynistic. If sex is about a process of discovery and connection between two people, then there can be no "cookbook", no 'recipe guide' for non-patriarchal sexuality. And to not reiterate, I've already expressed my opinion on 'feminist porn' somewhere in this post here.

And you believe it, thus it must be true for all! All hail Maggie, the unquestionable authority on the lives and reality of any and every woman in the sex business, and any and every woman who makes woman-centric and woman centered pornography! Genuflect, all, before the unfailable wisdom and authority of Great Maggie the Omniscient!

We, radical feminists, generally refer to women in the sex industry as 'prostituted women' because (1) we acknowledge that they've had extremely limited choices under patriarchy & we empathize with them, (2) we realize that most of them are under the control of cruel pimps & brutal or hurtful johns, and (3) we want to emphasize the fact that most of the victims of the 'sex' industry are female.

The royal we? Bonus points! And sure, you do. Never mind how those women identify. Are there prostituted people (ahem, let us not forget the girls, boys, and men, please) out there? Yes, most certainly. Are there sex workers out there? Yes, most certainly…and all of them are real, live, human people and deserve the basic fucking respect to have the terminology they prefer used you arrogant stain.

Calling someone a victim is seen as much an insult as calling someone oppressed to some people, including in the academia. Also, the word "victim" also implies that there is a victimizer, which can be very disturbing to recognize for some women who want to feel empowered, such as the 'sex poz' feminists for instance.

…blink… Mags, have I called you an arrogant, snot-ass, brat moron yet? No? Then I think now is a good time. Who the hell are you to define anyone else’s sense of anything, much less stuff like victimhood, oppression and empowerment? My my, how do we get our fat head in the door at night?

Some women just do not want to face their oppressed status. And I've been there myself once, at some point in my life. I used to live in some sort of 'denial' 'cause I wanted to feel empowered and desirable to men a few years back. Because the reality of my inferior status to men would have been just too painful. . . to realize.

“Maggie is every woman! It’s all in her!” la la la, a la la la! Listen, kid, just because you felt bad and oh so exploited shaking your ass in a short skirt on the dance floor of a club doesn’t mean the whole female half of the world feels the same way or has had the same experience. How fucking hard is that to grasp? You know what’s painful? Listening to arrogant presumptive Saint Sister Save a Ho act like they know everything. THAT is more agonizing than being set on fire, and shit, I’d know!

I believe that we, women, should all start understanding our inequality, we should all become aware of it in the hope of changing the world in which we live (a world ruled by the patriarchy and the porno-iarchy) and working toward genuine equality between the sexes.

Ha! HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh shit. YOU can’t even see women who disagree with you as equal, you idiot! How the fuck are you going to get men to see any woman as an equal coming from that stance? A nice start, Maggie, would be engaging with women who don’t agree with you, but since you can’t even be assed to do that? Well, no faith in you or the revolution, sister. Pfft.

The legalization of prostitution does not work. Organized crimes and trafficking still occur in the Netherlands, where prostitution is mistakenly seen as "work", as it has recently been reported here. There, in this article, a spokeswoman for Equality Now (an anti-trafficking organization) lately said that "[i]nstead of controlling prostitution, legalisation has led to a disastrous outbreak of increased exploitation of women in the sex trade, sex trafficking and other related crimes."On the other hand, the Swedish law, that prosecutes johns, pimps & traffickers and provides exit programs for prostitutes, has worked…

Yeah, it’s worked just great! Ask the Swedish sex workers (you remember them, right, Saint Sister Save a Ho?) just how much they loooooove this spiffy little model!

Stop Porn Culture, a feminist anti-pornography movement, has recently launched a new website, on which people (especially women) who don't know what pornography is really about (i.e. who still believe 'this is just pictures of people having sex') can watch the most recently updated slide show which presents a feminist critique of the contemporary mainstream pornography industry (*you must be 18 or over to watch this - Warning: may trigger*) and then they can witness the undeniable misogyny of the content of porn.As the creators of this slideshow said in the script for it:

"This presentation provides a critical analysis of these sexist and racist images that are so harmful to children, women, and men; to our relationships; and to the culture at large. For many, this show is an introduction to a feminist understanding of the pornographic culture, and the slides may be hard to look at. We have included these harsh images not to shock but to help us understand porn culture so that we can organize against it."

Well Mags, at least you mentioned the 18 thing. Which, you know, they don’t card people at the door at these things to check, and the little button on the website is the exact sort of “security” that landed John Stagliano in court…

I have seen that slideshow, I have been trained to be able to present it at some point in the future, and I do know how well-made and eye-opening it is. After projections of it in large rooms, I would always notice how (usually) more than three quarters of the audiences were horrified by this appalling abuse of women that pornography is and how this slideshow would stir anyone (who has at least a remnant of humanity left within him/herself) into action.

Oh goody, Maggie has been trained! Do you fetch, too? Roll Over? Shake hands? And nice…those who don’t agree with you have no humanity? Look, up above, we have agency denial and delusion, now, dehumanization…oh yes, I do keep track.

Although I do not visit pro-porn blogs anymore, I lately got told by rad fems about how silencing these people are trying to be and how intolerant they really are.As it has, a few days ago, been reported by A Birch Tree, there has been a misunderstanding of the law and the blogger also said:

"I suppose what really ruffles the finches’ feathers [referring to the name of her blog Tree of Finches] is that the pro-porn lobby seems to show so much concern for the “rights” of porn participators when it comes to using their images without proper documentation, but not when it comes to, say, their terrifyingly high rates of PTSD or the fact that 80% of them don’t even get the courtesy of a condom, much less how they tend to discount the stories of any woman who has been horribly abused by the porn industry. No no, their (arbitrarily applied) concern is over documentation. That’s obviously the important issue."

Um, Maggie? It’s an important issue because of Federal Law 2257, and sorry, but I just find the mere idea of fighting exploitation and lack of consent with exploitation and lack of consent too fucking ironic to pass up!

In the slideshow script, it is written:

". . . the women’s faces are not blurred and are often recognizable. We cannot know how these women would feel about having their images used in this presentation. We have made the difficult decision to show them, because the women’s facial expressions are crucial to understanding these images. We ask you to recognize with us the moral complexity of this decision, keeping in mind that these women are human beings with dignity. "

“and further more, when told how much various women involved in porn did not like this, we decided we did not care, so fuck them being humans and their dignity”

As a commenter at A Birch Tree's said:
"I don’t think that the porn slideshows are intended primarily to change the minds of porn-users - though they do (if I remember the Stop Porn Culture slideshow rightly - it’s offline) present the images with a feminist critique, pointing out the aggression and hatred in the images. The slideshows are also a way for women & other activists who don’t use porn and have had little exposure to it to get an idea of the reality of porn. It’s all too easy to assume that porn is just images of people having sex. . ."

The matter is in no doubt complex. If you don't show pornography, then people can just say, "Pornography is just about people having sex," and thus easily shrug off the issue. And if you do show pornography, then you can possibly trigger some rape or prostitution survivors in the audience. But then anybody can decide to stop watching the slideshow or get out of the room (if it's a public presentation) anytime though.

Unless they are required to attend it for credit in a women’s studies class (hat tip, Penn & Tellers: Bullshit- “the war on porn”)

Once we understand that these women are victims and not "actresses", it becomes perfectly understandable while we would show that slideshow.

Um, Maggie… I have a degree in theatre. I’ve played Abigail in “the Crucible”, Dr. Einstein in "Arsenic & Old Lace", Tzeitel in "Fiddler on the Roof", Rizzo in "Grease", and even Hamlet. So then, do you get to tell me if I am an actress or not? Does Gail Dines? Further more, do either of you get to decide when someone is a victim and when they are not? I mean, Gail is totally comfortable telling women when they have been raped and when they have not…you with her there too? And I love how selective the whole definition of acting you people use is. If a woman in porn looks like she’s enjoying it or everything is okay, well, then, she is acting. Then she is an actress. If she doesn’t, well, then she’s a victim and not an actress. Get this through your thick fucking skull: You Cannot Have It Both Ways. Either people in porn can act (like the love it or hate it), or they cannot. Make up your fucking minds.

I doubt the thousands of victims who were shown on TV, suffering or drenched in blood, would all have given their consent to the filming and photos of their bodies being used by anti-war protesters. The children burned with napalm and the victims of Abu Graib couldn't possibly have given consent to have their photos used by journalists and anti-war or anti-torture activists.

Ohhh, nice try. Correct, those people did not. However, those in porn signed forms for specific people (the pornographers) to use them. And there are laws in place to make sure all that shit is legal and on the level for a reason. A reason, oddly enough, radical feminists pushed for…yet, they feel free to violate that law themselves then cry fair use? I mean really, how pathetic. There are ex porn performers, producers, and other assorted people from the sex biz on your side, right? Surely some of them would consent to use of their images and stories, right? Why not use them, rather than people’s whose feelings on the matter are unknown?

Saying that none of the images of pornographic torture, showing the women humiliated, suffering and having their bodies being injured, should be allowed to be used by feminist anti-pornography educators within the framework of the feminist critique of the pornstitution industry is just like saying that the free speech of anti-war activists should be suppressed.

Um, wrong. People don’t sign consent forms to be tortured and killed in war. People do sign those things to be in porn.

To restrict the political use of images merely because the victimized subjects did not give permission could make whole categories of journalism impossible (and I don't care if pro-porners later on deny all the facts that I'm writing here -- as denying facts and slandering rad fems is all they do anyway).

Wrong again. And jesus woman, if you’re gonna slander, expect us to do it back.

We are neither the users who cruelly masturbate to this atrocious and widespread crime against women that is called pornography, nor are we the pornographers who capitalize on women's pornographic ordeals.

Um, we get that. You’ll just deny agency, terminology, the work done by sex worker rights groups and activists, dehumanize people, mock them, and support the unconsented to expoitation of porn performers for your cause. Psst, Maggie, that is “cruel”. And SPC sure as fuck is capitalizing on women in pornography's "ordeals"- college money, book deals, speaking gigs...that's paid, and it is capitalism, you idiot.

We show the slideshow because we want to stir people into feminist actions against the pornography industry. We want to stop the demand for this gruesome abuse. We want to stop the abuse itself, by educating communities and working toward reducing (largely) male demand for female sexual slavery, torture, agony and suffering.

And damn the opinions, thoughts, feelings, agency, and outrage of the women you use in that quest! One ping, and one ping only, sir!

Something tells me that porn apologists, deep down, know that our feminist anti-pornography slideshow is a powerful educating tool against their anti-woman propaganda (although it is something else that they will inevitably deny as usual, of course). That is why they're trying to silence us. Their protest against our slideshow is nothing else but another attempt to shut us up. And it will fail! :)

Um, cupcake? I have no interest in silencing you. Talk all you want, write all you want. However, you know, if one of my images ever ended up in that slide show, I’d be real fucking pissed. I would make it a point, no, wait, correct that, a goddamn mission, to show up at every single one of these things that I could show up at and say, flat out, to everyone, that SPC was exploiting me and using my image without my consent, that it offended me, that I had no desire to have my photo used in such a fashion, and I found it dehumanizing, degrading, agency denying, and hurtful. And how quick, sweet Mags, do you think I would be silenced for doing so? Thrown out of the room? Arrested? Probably repeatedly? Shit, I almost wish such an opportunity would present itself so I could test my theory. Hey, even as it is, I could show up at one and stand up when Gail Dines does her speech about how every first scene, consent forms be damned, is rape and disagree with her, attempt to say “gee, you know, I do porn and I’ve not been raped, and I find your denial of my agency and consent offensive, degrading, exploitive, and hurtful”…maybe I’ll try that, and then we can see what happens. What to make bets now, Maggie? I’m a gambler, Mags, how about you? Pst, faithful pro-pornie sellouts, who wants to come hold a camera for me? I’m sure I would be shouted down, insulted and silenced quite quickly, what do you think? Oh, you also want to remember, in the long run? The pornographers can probably afford better lawyers.

"Please DO look at the photographs, which are not owned by the people depicted, but by the torturers. As long as the only people who see these and others like them are the torturers and torture and pornography consumers, women haters, abusers and traffickers win, because ordinary people will not see what pornography is really about."

The infamous Pony quote (one of many really. Hey Mags, you know your buddy Pony once more or less called me a dog and flat out accused me-with no proof- of being a marketing front?) What folk forget is Kink.com is not representitive of porn in general. Oh well, all for the cause!

Showing the slideshow is one of the best way to make our point when we say that mainstream pornography is misogynistic. Contemporary pornography is a lot more about images and films than words, so restricting our critique to words would be inadequate.

And fuck the feelings of the people in it! Amen!

One of the aims of the feminist anti-pornography slideshow is to encourage empathy for porn performers (whom porn consumers do not regard as human beings, but cruelly use them as "fuck-objects" instead). I remember how sad and angry I felt after I'd attended that slideshow's screening. While the slideshow is onscreen, we witness these women's suffering in it, which makes it known so it cannot be ignored.

You-Fucking-Hypocrite! Empathy? You wouldn’t know actual empathy for a real live porn performer if it bit you in the ass with poisoned fangs. At least not one who disagreed with you. You don’t regard them as human beings, each and every entry in your fucking blog shows that. You may not see them as fuck objects, but you see them is cause objects, which is just as dehumanizing, Poor little poster girls that you can think and speak for, as if you know fucking everything. It makes you sad and angry? Fuck you, Maggie Hayes, you have no fucking clue about sad and angry, let alone empathy. God you make me want to puke.

If pornography is protected as "free speech", then so should be any criticism of it while showing its images.

Um, no. Federal Law. No consent on part of the performers in non-news based media. No real consideration of their feelings, and no attempt to include their feelings (silencing).

I almost wish I did have a photo of you back in your short skirt/dance club days that I could plaster up for everyone to see in order to make a point. A photo that A) shows the world what you look like, B) Could impact future job opportunities, a C) would be used in a manner you never consented to having it used in nor intended for it to be used in, without your permission, and D) gee, people might call you hideous, like Gail does in her show. THEN maybe you could tell me how fair and educational it was and how the feelings of those women, well, in the bigger picture, they just don’t really matter enough to be taken into consideration. Then maybe you could talk. Until then, you have no room to talk about how okay it is. If you want to, feel free to send me a photo of you nude, fucking, or some such thing, with 2257 compliance signed because I follow the fucking law, and I’ll be happy to subject you to what SPC is subjecting porn performers too. Care to sign on for that, Mags?

Seeing pornography is like looking into the reflection of porno-iarchy, taking a look into the mirror of male dominance. It is nauseating, distressing but sometimes it is necessary when we want to educate other people to combat the harms.

You’re fucking nauseating.

"Women are eager to accommodate seemingly any and every sexual request.""When a woman says 'no,' she means 'yes'.""Women incite men to rape.""Women secretly fantasize about being raped.""Rape doesn't happen very often.""False reporting of rape is common.""Women secretly enjoy being raped.""Women who are drunk are willing to engage in any kind of sexual activity.""Real rapes are only committed by strangers.""Women who are sexually assaulted 'ask for it' by the way they dress or act.""A woman who goes to the home or the apartment of a man on their first date implies that she is willing to have sex.""Any healthy woman can successfully resist a rapist if she really wants to.""Many women have an unconscious wish to be raped, and many then unconsciously set up a situation in which they are likely to be attacked.""If a girl engages in necking or petting and she lets things get out of hand, it is her own fault if her partner forces sex on her.""Being roughed up is sexually stimulating to many women.""Sometimes the only way a man can get a cold woman turned on is to use force.""Many times a woman will pretend she doesn't want to have intercourse because she doesn't want to seem loose, but she's really hoping the man will force her."

All messages that were around before porn, and in places without porn, so on, yadda yadda, amen.

Fight the lies (*) of porn culture. I hear you, anonymous sister! Don't feel bad about yourself, you haven't done anything wrong. I'm so sorry all these terrible things happened to you. (((Big Hugs))) I'm a victim/survivor too. Please join us if you like. The people who tell you you're abnormal are wrong. You are perfectly normal because you hate pornography, and the folks who tell you the opposite are the ones who need therapy, or more exactly a good anti-porn radical feminist 'therapy'.

God Mags, you going for a record? Agency denial, dehumanization, othering, and now ableism and accusations of mental problems for those who disagree with you? You’re really outdoing yourself this go around. Equality for all women, indeed, asshole. You will be converted, damn you! In the Name of the Radical Feminist Faith! Hey Mags, you seen "A Clockwork Orange"?

We, radical feminists, will keep speaking out on those harms that the 'sex' industry generates and perpetuates.
Surrender, I will not.
Surrender, we will not.

“And we will fight you on the beaches” You got a General Patton outfit, Maggie?

Well guess what, kid, I won’t surrender either. Targeting you, Mags? Remember that accusation? Well now, I guess you could say I am. I even think you deserve it.