That some people (thread starts there) are just all up in arms and screaming about my privilege to the Heavens because I made the following statement:
"Even I have had shit times in my business, which you said you were oh so sorry for…yet… Reading this shit and this altering of what I’ve said…it’s worse. And gee, color me surprised if I don’t see the comment published, too bad I believe in making both sides known… Frankly, woman to woman, I’d take a rape to this kind of distortion…and I mean that full heartedly. Don’t get how THAT feels? I wouldn’t be surprised." -ME
Is it an ugly, visceral statement? Yep. It also happens to be, in my case...true. I would. I'd take a rape to the constant lies and distortion. Physical pain? Been there, done that, have the scars. Emotional pain? Hell, we've all been there. What cracks me up, and yes, I mean cracks me up, is these are the same people who think lying about how I broke my nose to further an agenda is okay, or that me taking exception to Gail Dines statement is horrible. Oh, here's Gail's statement: "I watched a very interesting interview with some women in pornography...they all basically said the same thing. they all said, 'you know, i signed the contract, i'm willing, it's my consent. but, something happened to me that day on the set. that first day, something crossed over in me, and i don't know what it is, but something changed.' now, i think tomorrow we'll talk about that, because it's very complicated what did change. but they experienced rape on that set. and i don't care if you sign a million fucking contracts, that's rape...when your trauma is forever documented, there is no closing the door." That statement, in my head, sounded like contracts and consent be damned, all women performers in porn were (regardless of what they say) raped their first time on a porn set. I don't think Gail gets to make that call...
BUT...BUT... if you, oh, agree with Gail...well then, shit...I've been raped a lot. And am in no place of privilege when I make my "I'd rather be" statement. See, these people don't get to have it both ways in their oh so special anti porn radical feminist worldview...either I have been raped (repeatedly, cause Gail is right!) and thus, no privilege at all when I make that statement, or I haven't been raped, in which yeah, their may be privilege in my statement, but Gail is then being...ahem...inflamatory and dismissive all at once.
So which is it, kids? Is Gail right and yep, sure enough, me and every other woman in porn was raped the first time on a set, at which point, I can compare and decide about what is worse for me with no privilege at which point....STFU...or is Gail maybe wrong about that? Either I've been raped via work, or I haven't. You don't get to have it both ways when it suits you.
Me, I say I haven't been raped, Gail does not get to decide that for anyone...and for me, personally, I stand by my oh so horrible statement. But of course, any excuse to ignore ones own crap behavior and that of their allies, right? I notice nary a word about Gin's lie...
Shocked? Nah, not at all.
And yeah, I've replied to some shit over there...still in moderation. We'll see, I guess.
Monday, October 06, 2008
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11 comments:
In reply to Ginmar's comment, Oh my fucking God. Privilege, anyone? Gah...I just....Gah! That's obscene. That's just....obscene. But then again, isn't that her business? here's what I wrote:
Yeah, it is obscene, but (without wishing to put words into Miz Evolution's mouth) I think that's the point she's trying to make - that your treatment, and Gail Dines' treatment, and a lot of other radical feminists' treatment, of sex-workers, is downright obscene. I speak only from the words by others (i.e. sex-workers) that I have read and listened to and heard, but I suspect that she's not the only one to feel that way, either.
I'm not going to say whether or not I agree with that assessment, but I can certainly see that Miz Evolution feels a strong and visceral disgust over this matter, and has been forthright in saying so. Dismissing her voice, because of her emotional response to a debate strikes me as no different from calling a woman "hysterical" as a reason to keep her from, say, being a member of a government. Which leads us back into just how the use of the term "stupid" might have been perceived as a sexist slur in the first place.
SnowdropExplodes (guaranteed at least 40% male)
The "at least 40% male" is a reference to Demonista's claim that her use of "stupid" was not sexist, because "Yes I did refer to their beliefs as "the stupid"--but I was saying that to her and her supporters, of which at least 40% are MALE" (and also a reference to my gender-variant sense of self anyway).
Did Gail Dines actually ask those women whether they had been raped or not? Or, is she just putting words in their mouths in order to further her own agenda? Hmmm, I wonder.
Personally, for me, I find statements like that quoted here extremely offensive, you know, as an ACTUAL rape survivor, not a HYPOTHETICAL rape survivor. I think, unless those women themselves actually say they have been raped, in which case of course I will believe them, Gail Dines is simply using them. Which makes her no better than the industry which she claims is using them. She is denying those women their own voices as much as she would no doubt say pornography does.
For any person to say that another person has been raped, without consultation with that person, without taking that person's actual lived reality into account, without any recourse to whether or not that person wants you to speak about them in those terms or not, is disgusting.
It is every bit as bad as saying someone has NOT been raped when they have.
Sorry, me again - but - the way that was quoted at demonista's like some kind of gospel...well, I just...
So, Dines says they were raped, so that means they were raped, because Dines is all-seeing, all-knowing? No kind of feminist speaks for another woman about whether they were raped or not, and that's that. If you are doing that you are not a feminist, or woman-centred or anything. Good grief...
Hi R.E.,
This is completely off topic, but -- apparently being technologically challenged -- I can't find the email on your blog.
Anyway: long time reader, rare poster. I was wondering if you knew about this:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/10/05/porn/
Four years in *prison* for producing and distributing *consensual* porn. There is something very, very wrong happening to this country. :(
Interesting post. I would say if you don't perceive yourself as being raped then you are not. 100%. Can women in porn be exploited, but not raped? Yes. It happens to me every day at my library job!
I think I might have some understanding of the gist of their point. If a person is in a relationship where their spouse beats them, but they says they aren't abused... then is they? Legally, you can answer the calls and penalize the perpetrator, but you can't force them to divorce because that person makes a "choice" to be there. Children are taken in account in a separate way (JUST like porn). When dealing with abusive situations and the manipulation and degradation that happens, even if it is "consensual" in some ways, you're not just dealing with a single person and their feelings. You're dealing with an entire situation. Do I believe this means no people in romantic relationships should live together? No. I don't.
I think there should be help there for the women who want/ need it-which helps to give them agency rather than dictates what they should do. In that way, it's a huge part of the healing process. Which is why your point makes the most sense to me. I believe that for some women, porn can be just a job. For others it can be a job they totally love. For others it can be something else entirely. As adults and agents of our own bodies we have the right to make choices. Period. On a human level, I believe, we have the right to define our own experiences, yes Gayle Dines.. this includes.. WOMEN!
That being said, I have some questions. I'm not in the porn industry, so I won't presume to know what happens in certain situations. What are the contracts like and what do they say? If a performer gets uncomfortable during part of the scene and wants to quit, does that just mean the contract/consent form is null & void and there is no exchange of money? Does the money come first? If someone does sign the contract/consent form and midway through the scene says "I'm not comfortable with this" and the other performer continues.. is that rape? Have there been situations or legal battles over this? I don't know much about these consent forms. It's an interesting concept. I've seen the scene in Khan Tusion's Rough Sex 2 where the performer starts crying and they cut the scene. I'm guessing it wouldn't be in the best interest of the porn industry to engage in anything borderline illegal since they are watched with such a critical eye.
By the way, I fully support your being pissed that they're saying you're raped. As someone who has been raped, it pisses me off. In redefining rape in such a broad sense, I feel that my experience being raped gets redefined. If Gayle Dines is THAT concerned with ACTUAL rape, perhaps her energy would best be spent fighting for women who HAVE been raped. Since that system is so obviously currently FUCKED (check out the military recently or.. hey.. even one of our vice presidential nominees). Put some of your time, energy and funding into fixing the system that ignores the needs of people who have been raped. Where the fuck were you Gayle Dines, when my VERY REAL case of rape got dropped because I lived in a small southern town and the prosecutors felt like it wasn't a case worth going after? Oh.. that's right... you were busy re-inventing the word rape to suit your academic endeavors. You were also doing academic research that could give my rapist a possible excuse. "Sorry judge, the defendant was addicted to porn and became a rapist because of all the evil porn." Guess what... you get rid of porn, you're still going to have rape! Even if my rapist had been elbow deep in porn 24/7, guess how much solace would come from it? None. He MADE THE DECISION to rape me, it didn't just happen and it wasn't pornography's fault. Sorry for the ramble, I'm obviously too pissed to continue.
Love how they invoke "privilege" as an excuse to treat you like complete shit. FAIL.
*sigh* I really don't get how that's privilege. I just... don't. Privilege is saying, "white men have it worse than women of color." Or saying "women have no right to critique men's opinions." Or saying "Putting a ramp in this building is undue hardship. One less customer is no big deal."
I guess Gin is claiming there's "privilege" to never having been raped, which... well, first it doesn't make any sense because as you say, if Dines IS right then you WERE raped, regardless of your own feelings. But second, there isn't a system by which "people who haven't been raped" systemically oppress "people who have been."
So yeah... very stupid. I honestly think the word "privilege" is beginning to become meaningless.
Debs: No, Dines didn't actually talk to the women, she saw an interview of some. Never spoke with them at all...this seems to be common amid the Anti Porn high rollers...they never actually talk to the performers, then feel free to speak for them or make assumptions about them, and sure enough, it pisses me right the hell off.
Anonymous- Yeah, I think it is enraging to make those sorts of statements all around, both for women who have been raped and women who have not been, because it trivializes things for those who HAVE been. As for how contracts work, well, for me (I speak for me only) I agree to do whatever acts for whatever payment. My proof of age is documented, my consent is documented, we roll. I've never changed my mind mid scene or whatever, or been asked to do more than I signed on to do. Are performers sometimes pressured? yes, I think sometimes they are. I also know women who have walked off set mid way throu or changed their minds about a certain act and been paid for what they did, or even for everything, anyway...and yes, people are careful because the industry IS watched very carefully.
James, I will check out the article.
@ debs:"Personally, for me, I find statements like that quoted here extremely offensive, you know, as an ACTUAL rape survivor, not a HYPOTHETICAL rape survivor."
EXACTLY! This is what continues to prove to me that their (that is ppl w/Dines' mindset wrt porn/pros./sex work) anger and hatred of pornography and sex work in general stems from some personal insecurity they have. This is personal and ALL ABOUT THEM! But since they know their camp would be quickly abandoned if they said, "Well, those sexy women make me feel insecure so I want to turn it back on them!" (or something like that), which would be closer to the truth. Instead they make up lies and generalizations to spread the misery and create situations that either aren't there or are rare.
If these arguments were ever, truly about helping those who need the assistance, then the experiences, testimonies and individual realities of sex workers (or any woman deemed "too sexy") would never be denigrated, ignored, demonized, or minimized. But no. It's all about them. And their personal insecurities stemming from something that has shit to do with me.
I was laughing too hard at the link to a song featuring TRACI LORDS!
Does she not realize that the song she loves was recorded by a porn star who was a MINOR when she made her movies? I guess Demonista isn't above endorsing the statutory rape of a minor female either. OR she is too stupid to know who Traci Lords is, all while calling other people stupid.
Figures. Par for the course.
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